Who do you think should be elected in 2008?

[hectorberlioz]

And Lief, while Romney hasn't exactly been Mr. Conservative himself on social issues, it's extremely disingenuous for McCain to claim that mantle with his "straight talk". He has said pro-life things, he has said pro-choice things. He has voted both ways. Depending on the situation. And while Rick Santorum is something of a backstabber himself (McCain campaigned for him), he has some insight into McCain's character behind the curtain and says McCain worked against bringing up abortion and marriage amendement bills. He's cursed out his rivals, called them bigots, and has dubious judgement, IMO. It's nice to say you're againt torture*. Hopefully as President, reality would settle in. He wants to give Guantanamo prisoners a chance at our court system. Disaster.

McCain is the choice for American Hero. He is not the choice for P.O.T.U.S.

*Mark Bowden makes a fine-pointed case for outlawing waterbaording, with a twist.
Part II

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

And Lief, while Romney hasn't exactly been Mr. Conservative himself on social issues, it's extremely disingenuous for McCain to claim that mantle with his "straight talk". He has said pro-life things, he has said pro-choice things. He has voted both ways. Depending on the situation.

I just checked over his full voting record on abortion related issues, looking at each vote he made. I think that there's only one vote in his whole record where he didn't take a pro-life position. I may be wrong- there may be two. I only counted one, though. That's out of twenty-one votes. There were three times where he chose not to vote either for or against abortion related issues, but silence is not criminal. Why exactly he was silent on them, we don't know, but he only once that I know of voted against a pro-life bill.

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_cate...p?can_id=53270

As for verbal comments, this is an election. He may have chosen to verbally fudge up the line he has systematically taken in his voting record as senator. He may have done that to win votes from independents and to look more acceptable to both parties. Which is a bit deceptive, if that's what he's doing, but my feeling is that virtually every candidate is using some tricks that most of us would look askance on. I'm also more interested in the skills of the candidates than in little possible campaign tricks like that. That's why I don't hold against Hillary Clinton that her campaigners told college students what questions to ask her in a supposedly free question/ask meeting. It stinks, but that's the way it goes. It's not a huge deal.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

And while Rick Santorum is something of a backstabber himself (McCain campaigned for him), he has some insight into McCain's character behind the curtain and says McCain worked against bringing up abortion and marriage amendement bills. He's cursed out his rivals, called them bigots, and has dubious judgement, IMO.

Insulting rivals is rude, but it's not much reason for someone to not vote for the candidate. People can be rude and simultaneously excellent politicians.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

It's nice to say you're againt torture*. Hopefully as President, reality would settle in. He wants to give Guantanamo prisoners a chance at our court system. Disaster.

I understand your point. President Bush also caved on this one, a while ago, though. He declared that the long term goal would be to take prisoners out of Guantanamo Bay and try them in US courts. Like McCain, he said he wants to close Guantanamo Bay Prison.

I don't know that this is an issue Republicans will be able to hold out on. But even if it was, I don't think it would be serious enough for me to hang my voting hat on.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

McCain is the choice for American Hero. He is not the choice for P.O.T.U.S.

I don't know that any of the other major Republican candidates have had experience at facing political storms and weathering them. Guiliani seems to have done a good job in New York during the 9/11 bombings, and he takes an excellent hard line against terror. Guiliani's position on social moral issues are outrageous, though. I don't know of any candidates, aside from him and McCain, who have proven that they can weather a storm and hold their own in a crisis situation or under intense pressure. Strength of character, as well as intelligence and holding what to me is the right position on the right issues, is very important to me.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Well, McCain's character comes and goes, with me. For darn sure he's anti-torture, and good. I can't get past the business with his first wife, though. It matters how people treat their nearest and dearest, kwim?

You make a very good point. I think there should be a law against what he did to his first wife, and he should be punished under it.

His sexual immorality isn't likely to effect his job performance, though, I should think. I just don't see any other Republican candidates except Guiliani that have really proven themselves. I prefer to vote for the one who is proven and thus more dependable, rather than the one who is untried.

[Lief Erikson]

This is a repeat post, and I don't like its tone as much as the one above, so I'm dumping its content.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Big business tends to favour tax cuts, which would seem to me to be a good reason to oppose them.

Very true. The main reason being that they often want to take their money overseas. Taxation, in general, doesn't take any money out of the system, but it forces a lot of businesses to keep their money in the US economy.

[hectorberlioz]

This is the weirdest campaign ad you've ever seen

http://boortz.com/more/video/best_campaign_ad_ever.html

[brownjenkins]

That's great!

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

That's great!

It's the coolest reason to vote for someone yet

[hectorberlioz]

I'm heading home in a bit, whereupon I'll bother this thread with more of my *weak* analysis. Stay tuned

[hectorberlioz]

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

What's wrong, hector?

[hectorberlioz]

Question: was FL a closed primary after all? Because McCain got 20% of non-Republican votes. Romney won the GOP vote 33-31. He won "Conservatives" (within the "GOP") 37-27.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...Q4YzhjM2ZjODg=

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...NkMmMwYzYzNjA=

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...imary-260.html

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/pri...dex.html#FLREP (pages 1-5)

In short, Romney would have won if it had truly been a closed primary. McCain STILL hasn't won a closed primary, in all his years...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Question: was FL a closed primary after all? Because McCain got 20% of non-Republican votes. Romney won the GOP vote 33-31. He won "Conservatives" (within the "GOP") 37-27.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...Q4YzhjM2ZjODg=

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...NkMmMwYzYzNjA=

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...imary-260.html

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/pri...dex.html#FLREP (pages 1-5)

In short, Romney would have won if it had truly been a closed primary. McCain STILL hasn't won a closed primary, in all his years...

So you're mad about the 'big tent' business? Because all those people were registered Republicans, although your links weren't very helpful.

[hectorberlioz]

McCain won, fair and square. Congratulations to the Senator.

Romney isn't going to win the nomination. He's still got a fight or two that he could win, but at this point it's pretty certain voters are going to solidify behind McCain.

[hectorberlioz]

One thing I really like about American campaigning and politics is that, despite what some doomsayers say, the candidates really are chosen by the people. These candidates have all campaigned hard. Romney's money has helped him, but he had to go down to the ground to gain traction. Ditto all the other guys. Kissing babies (Tradition!), picking lice (historical...I believe it was Andrew Jackson), mowing lawns (the Dave Barry joke about Rudy in FL)....it's better than the Russian elections where the winner jets over the people and says to himself "just declare me the winner and get it over with."

[The Gaffer]

I agree, hector, and I'd add that it's great to see people getting energised and enthused by politics at a grass roots level.

My concerns would more be around it being too media-obsessed. I've been following this thread since the start and the number of posts about actual policy (as opposed to perception/image) is very small indeed.

The impression I get from here is that policy matters are only touched on in a very superficial way, almost like a football team's stats (e.g. a candidate might be described in terms like "weak on foreign policy but strong on the economy"). These dimensions then get mapped against supposed electoral constructs (e.g. soccer moms) who respond to particular dimensions.

i.e., it's meta-politics, not politics. Or, if you prefer, a 10-month beauty pageant.

I'm not having a go at the US specifically, everywhere is getting more and more like that. Just an observation.

[Nautipus]

I would tend to agree.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I agree, hector, and I'd add that it's great to see people getting energised and enthused by politics at a grass roots level.

My concerns would more be around it being too media-obsessed. I've been following this thread since the start and the number of posts about actual policy (as opposed to perception/image) is very small indeed.

The impression I get from here is that policy matters are only touched on in a very superficial way, almost like a football team's stats (e.g. a candidate might be described in terms like "weak on foreign policy but strong on the economy"). These dimensions then get mapped against supposed electoral constructs (e.g. soccer moms) who respond to particular dimensions.

i.e., it's meta-politics, not politics. Or, if you prefer, a 10-month beauty pageant.

I'm not having a go at the US specifically, everywhere is getting more and more like that. Just an observation.

Well you're right in general. It does get to be more of an [American] football game. But at least on the Republican side, the fight between Romney and McCain is over: Defense experience (McCain's ground) and the economy (Romney's ground). Both are snapping their respective suspenders hard.

I've watched the Democrat debates, and while Hillary and Obama both talked issues, the reason for the split with the Democratic party has more to do with each candidate's character...because Obama and Hil aren't different enough on issues for it to matter.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Both are snapping their respective suspenders hard.

Thanks - I could have done without that mental image mate.

Same story here of course. It's ironic that the information age seems to have led to less information.

I see Giuliani's out. McCain leading Clinton 48-41, and Obama 47-41. And Romney needs a career high punt return ... no wait, hang on ... ARRG ...

* burst *

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Thanks - I could have done without that mental image mate.

it made me laugh when I wrote it.

Same story here of course. It's ironic that the information age seems to have led to less information.

I would have to say 'information overload'. There is so much info, and so constant, that if you glance at a story one minute, you might not bother to see the correction to it five minutes later.

I see Giuliani's out.

And endorsing McCain.

John Edwards also out (Robert Novak hypothesizes that Obama promised him the Attorney General spot).

McCain leading Clinton 48-41, and Obama 47-41.

Indeed.

And Romney needs a career high punt return ... no wait, hang on ... ARRG ...

* burst *

Ok...I gotta admit that one went past me.

[GrayMouser]

Karma:

According to the exit polls Mitt Romney and John McCain tied 33% to 33% among the 89% of the Florida Republicans who voterd last night who were not Hispanic. Among Hispanics, who where 11% of the Florida GOP electorate last night, the vote was 54% McCain, 24% Rudy and 14% Romney. So it was the vote of Hispanic voters who put John McCain over the top in Florida, and gave him the most important win of his fight for the GOP nomination.

Thus, John McCain, the candidate who championed immigration reform, may have had the nomination delivered to him by those Hispanic voters he has been fighting for. And Romney, who has led the anti-immigrant crusade in the GOP field this year, saw this strategy explode on him - as it has virtually every other Republican who has invested in it - last night.

http://www.ndnblog.org/node/1846
Hispanics deliver Florida for McCain | NDN Blog