Discussion Thread Number 3 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Rían]

I have to get off line now, but quickly, I don't see why the Nazgul would know pretty much for sure that Val doesn't have the One Ring. I think it's a good plot line to keep, and a very reasonable one, too. I'd say just have Val make some comments about it that can be taken several ways. There is NO reason that I can see for the Nazgul to have concluded that he doesn't have it, unless I missed something

I've probably gone overboard with the innuendo - it is funny! - but will back off now.

[Rían]

(ps - Rian isn't paired with Tyaron yet - she's going to have second thoughts when she gets around humans again. And I don't know what Earniel is going to do with any attention Alagos may pay her, or what level of attention he may pay her. Don't order the wedding cake yet!)

[Valandil]

Oh - one more thing on the mental powers.

Perhaps I was the first one to make use of them in the game itself - but the intro already had spelled out that the Nazgul had some pretty extensive mind powers.

It was in response to this that I developed a character who was first conceived as just an advisor - and someone sent by the queen mother to keep the young king out of trouble - into what became Oreturion. I did it because I felt like Valandil would need some support like this if he was going to survive the powers that had already been described for the Nazgul.

Oreturion, though not of royal bloodlines - could be thought of as someone like Denethor - one in whom the race of Numenor ran nearly true (or however Tolkien states it - and remember how 'sparks flew' between him and Gandalf the one time?). I think Oreturion's abilities would be exemplary among men - he was probably, at this time, the most powerful in this area among mortal Men - since Elendil, Isildur and Anarion were no more and Valandil had not quite surpassed him yet.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Well - over THREE pages since I posted about this time yesterday. It's hard to keep up again, and hard to answer all the questions asked of me - and I'm behind in my reading once more.

It was Game Post #247 where Oreturion planted a suggestion to Marty - it was basically that he address the beautiful young (so he thought) lady whom he was admiring. He did so by speaking to her and taking her hand to kiss it. If one does these things, I would imagine that encouraging someone to do what they would like to do anyway would be easiest of all.

In Post #405, Khamul cures Melwen, wipes from her mind all memory of the past several hours (or was it days?), gets her drunk and firmly implants an image of Arastud in her mind, along with a good measure of lust - where she did not have this desire before. (EDIT: all while keeping three other very powerful creatures secured with invisible bonds)

CS - I don't see how it's a 'double-standard' for me to see the second as going significantly further than the first.

Lotesse - I was expressing some built-up frustration. As I said, some if it had to do with the highly increased power level of the Nazgul - and the way it affects game balance, especially with lack of limitations. Earniel brought up the corollary that I didn't mention - that you guys could just do as you would and take what you wanted, the way you were making things seem. Do I WANT the game to come to an end? Not necessarily. But if things would continue down that road, it would be hard for me to maintain my interest or desire to play.

Also - I had hoped we could protract some 'suspense' in the mind of the Nazgul characters about whether Valandil had the One Ring - but as I said - that seems to be out of the bag, perhaps.

And... goodness, everyone else besides me is pairing off! And my two best friends want to date Nazgulettes - and that may be what I'm headed for as well!

I agree with Earniel that we not make changes to what has been done already - either that or they be minimal and agreed on by consensus.

Butterbeer - maybe it was a half-empty day.

ALL - frankly, there's something else that bugs me some, and the storyline with Melwen comes into that too. We're probably playing some of the game a bit too close with the 'PG-13' limitations of Entmoot. And - even if we can make an argument that we have not crossed that line - I personally would just as soon keep well short of it. I just don't see the need to go too far into descriptions of intimacy between characters. Maybe some flirting and teasing and innuendo can be fun - but I'd just as soon not put my time in here if we're going to be taking things further than that. For THIS, I probably have the lion's share of blame to take myself (as a King should always get the lion's share! ), by pulling my first 'sword trick' - so here, before I could point my finger at anyone else, I certainly have four pointed back at myself (well... three - I'm not really sure what my thumb is doing). So - that's been bugging me a little too. As a father of three boys, I'm would rather we keep within what I think should be acceptable for younger people - and what I would be comfortable with my sons reading once they reached 12 or 13.

What do the rest of you think? Can we tone down the really 'hot and heavy' stuff?

Meanwhile, no time to post in the game thread once more. I have one or two planned for the wee hours of the morning - just before dawn maybe, or shortly after.

Say - do classes start today... Monday?

Gordis - I wondered if the Chancellor would really WANT to let Udu take some time off to get acquainted with the town. Or if he would assign Udu to jump right into teaching right away to keep him out of trouble.

Strange post, Val. First you express your frustration with just about everything, then ask a minor question about Udu. I will do as you suggest.

I gather your replies to my questionnaire are no, no and yes?

What is really wrong with you, Val? Yes, the King's position is precarious. But more is the fun. Can't you just think of some counter-plots and counter-measures?

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

All

I have questions that I wish to put to VOTE.

1. Do you believe and accept that Khamul was able to DELETE FOREVER ALL MEMORIES OF THE NIGHT from Melwen's mind?

2.Do you believe and accept that Khamul was able to heal the effects of Black Breath ENTIRELY?

3. Can others (e.g. Oreturion) tamper with her brain and make her remember the night?

I need only yes or no, for the three questions.

1.no
2.yes
3. probably, yes.

So, the maid is still dangerous for us. She should be dealt with.

[CrazySquirrel]

I think Val's main problem is that in this RPG layout he is left practically alone without supporters. He can take counsil only with himself. He plays his main counselors himself. Shah plays Ray and Marty, but practically Ray is so besotted with Viv, that he has no time or concern for his King. Marty has other interests now. Rian is completely absorbed in her family-love life. Earniel is the only one to whom he might turn, but it seems she herself is getting otherwise attracted. Even Annawen has forsaken the King.

(Speaking of that what fun will there be now in Commerce class?)

I believe the game would be much more attractive to Val if he had someone to plot with, another player, not another of his characters. We need another player for the Good side. Perhaps his mother might come to check on him? Whatever.

What do you think about it, Val?

[Rían]

Rian has been "completely absorbed in her family love-life" for ONE NIGHT (albeit a lot of posts!) and is looking forward VERY MUCH to starting classes in the morning, and I somehow have a VERY strong feeling she'll be in a study group with Val and Earniel and some others.

I can't WAIT for Commerce to start! I think it will be a blast!!!!

[The last sane person]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I think Val's main problem is that in this RPG layout he is left practically alone without supporters. He can take counsil only with himself. He plays his main counselors himself. Shah plays Ray and Marty, but practically Ray is so besotted with Viv, that he has no time or concern for his King. Marty has other interests now. Rian is completely absorbed in her family-love life. Earniel is the only one to whom he might turn, but it seems she herself is getting otherwise attracted. Even Annawen has forsaken the King.

Now now, thats not true. Ray and Marty are loyal to their king, and indeed DO have time, when classes start, I intend to have far more interaction, but seeing as Val has been rather busy himself as of late (rochdol planning, feasts, being besotted by Aiwendis, ect) Once classes start, I will have those two sober up.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I believe the game would be much more attractive to Val if he had someone to plot with, another player, not another of his characters. We need another player for the Good side.

*Waves hand in air* That'd be why I joined with a character custom made for plotlyness!

[Rían]

OK, here's my answers to Gordis' three questions:

1. Do you believe and accept that Khamul was able to DELETE FOREVER ALL MEMORIES OF THE NIGHT from Melwen's mind?

No. I think a more reasonable and accurate take on this ability, based upon my familiarity with Tolkien, would be that he could temporarily confuse her, but the memory would eventually work its way back. And with a bop on the head followed by simple verbal suggestions coming from multiple sources that are "in" on the deception, a great deal could be done to convince her that the thing never happened, and by the time the memory started coming back, she would most likely put it down to the confusion of a concussion.

2.Do you believe and accept that Khamul was able to heal the effects of Black Breath ENTIRELY?
I think that altho there might be some slight "residue" left over (they're kind of tired and shaky), that for the most part he could do this.

3. Can others (e.g. Oreturion) tamper with her brain and make her remember the night?

Yes, somewhat, because I look upon the power described in the #1 question as a kind of illness/injury that is inflicted, and anyone that is a healer could therefore "heal" it to varying degrees and the memory would come back faster than if it was left to "heal" on its own.

Now I would like to add one more question for the group, because for me, it's the most important one to be discussed:

4. Do you believe and accept that certain people can implant thoughts in another person's mind that impels them to do something, either in accord or out of accord with what they would naturally do?


General comments - There's a saying that I heard that goes like this: "take what you want, and then PAY for it!" My general feeling is that we're seeing a lot of "taking", but no "paying", with incidents like the Melwen incident (mainly the thought-implant part). From how it is currently written, I see NO reason why Khamul and the others can't just do this type of thing at ANY time, ANY place, ALL day long, without ANY problem whatsoever, and without ANY cost to themselves. And that just doesn't ring true to me.

Tyaron might be a good swordsman, and able to beat most men in a fight, but as he fights, he pays a price: he starts to tire, and he is in danger of incurring an injury, etc. I'd like to see the same concept here - maybe they can do these things only so often, and then they have to wait to build up some more power again or something? Or they can only do it in ways that might catch attention, so they can't just do it in public - they would have to lure the person into a dark alley or something. Anyway, SOME type of price.

In general, I think the concept of free will is vital to JRRT's works. I quoted JRRT himself on this, and the very fact that JRRT has Iluvatar Himself (for the most part) not interfering with free will is pretty telling, I think. So another "check" that we might put on this ability is that its strength is in direct proportion to how much the person would actually WANT to do this thing, anyway, and it wears off over time just like an illness or injury "heals".

Anyway, those are my thoughts, and I look forward to hearing other people's thoughts.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

*Waves hand in air* That'd be why I joined with a character custom made for plotlyness!

[whisper]I didn't mention you, Maggie, because I was keeping it as a surprise![/whisper]

I also have a strong feeling that Prof. Mahtaliel will be interacting with our study group ...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Woah. Lots of posts to read. Great posts everyone. Now for the more serious questions.

1. Nazgûl power. I do think that the Nazgûl need to have limitation. I also think that they need to vary with each different Nazgûl. The Morgul Lord being more powerful than all all in everything. Same with Khamûl yet less powerful. Then all the other seven beinghaving the same overall power, yet specialising in different areas.
I will edit my post with Khamûl and Melwen. I'll have Khamûl mentally exhausted from his work, but admittting that it will wear off in time. Hours? Days? When Melwen does remember what happened, maybe an accident could ahppen. Thoughts? CS, could you also edit your Khamûl post to have him mentally exhausted.

2. Animals. I do think that most animals should fear the Nazgûl. Shah, maybe you could have Marty & Ray's horses run off in different directions because of Viv's presence? What do you think Lotesse.

[The last sane person]

I will do it for Marty's horse, though he wont run off entirely. Volricom has already had Viv ride around on him, adn it would be a royal pain in the ass to go back to 4 of my posts and some of Lotesse's posts to edit that.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Gordis - I left the exact spot that Arabud started his climb purposefully vague, given my poor map skills - it was something like "a likely-looking spot". Since I wrote that he could see the lights, then it was obviously a spot where he could see the lights.
Good questions - that's the type of specific things I've been wanting to get straight - I'll think on them and get back to you.

If he climbed at a spot where he COULD see the lights, that means he climbed the FACADE of Orrodel. For everyone in the street to see; for Mahtaliel as well. Just for you to know.

And as we are currently discussing nazgul powers and limitations here is:

...and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly.(LOTR: the Knife in the Dark)

That is 100% Tolkien canon. Let it be a warning to mortals trying to sneak on us unawares.

[Rían]

Gordis - I also had him only climbing up a "few feet"
(on purpose!)

We will beware in the dark! But be careful what you quote because we're not using everything that you just quoted in this rpg, right? Like "we can feel their presence" and "it troubled our hearts" (although actually I think some of our elves have had a vague, undefined disquiet feeling on occasion, IIRC. I don't think any humans had that feeling, though; right?).

I would like to see some more of the "smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it" thing, though - it would be interesting to see the Nazgul be around people and battle that. I've seen something like that with the "elf-stench" thing and thought it was good!

[Rían]

Guys, I hate to nag, but I really think this discussion about getting some things straight will vastly improve the quality of the rpg, so I"d like to support the "other side" for a moment and ask pretty please that you guys don't start editing posts yet or have animals running away from Nazgul yet until we've come to an agreement. [/nag]

please don't get upset at me

[The last sane person]

Mad? Nah, I like you too much to be mad. I support Rian and the other side as well (for the moment)!

EDIT: Nice post Gordis! I like it muchly...I feel really sorry for poor Aiwendis.

[Butterbeer]

well, i ditto what shah just said... about Rian that is ... it is not a case of sides, but the rpg, as rian said.

I think it clear from both Val's and Earniel's stance that we do not go back and edit like crazy - we have to leave the animals reaction as is, but with some realism added occasionally, ... can we all agree on that?

just say "yes"

now i had a thought which i think fits in with some others here:

it was agreed that the nazgul do not take off their rings ...because they would then be very noticeable to animals and elves and kings etc etc ... but instead utter a spell to go invisable ... now i would suggest that if the Nazgul are uttering and maintaining a spell when invisable using both the powers of a spell and their rings to help maintain this spell, that indeed will take both concentration and power up ... thus when in invisable mode they are more open to be sensed ... maybe not as fully as of the time of LOTR when sauron has their rings and has them in thrall .... but they are more suspectible to elves, animals with their keener than mortal man's senses of fear, smell, instinct etc .... thus the nazgul must be very careful when invisable ...

to me this sounds both a realism we can build in, a balancer, and offers great rpg ans story oppoertunities for ALL, both naz and non naz ...

...er... now this will make you laugh , Boom has no ring and can flit between both worlds ... but he would appear a bit odd to any that sensed him when in the shadow or spirit world too!

but boom ain't really the issue anyway!

course, i'll go by whatever is agreed .. but do not see a problem with Boom anyway.


I have pm'd Gor ref Boom and the morgul lord, and the wraith call to the north and hopefully soonish we will be all be more clear on the search for the ring, the suspicion it might even now be here in the north .. and (some) of the nazgul and wraith communities plans and musings ...

hopefully this will strengthen the plot and help all in giving a clearer story-line ...

hopefully too the Morgul lord will lay down the law in terms of activities that endanger their presence here and the search for the ring ... and urge more circumspection and care and less use of revealing powers that may be detected ... after all, what could be more important to all the nazgul than finding the one ring? .. either for themsleves or to stop it being eventually wielded by some great king or elf who would surely over time succumb to it - and them being enslaved anew????

If it is, as they suspect it might be, here and now in the north, it is vital to them not to screw up by indiscretion ... now that will not stop drinking, racing, loves, in-fights, arguments etc, but all the nazgul should be careful: let the maid incident drum this into them, when / if the morgul lord lays down the law in his inimitable cold and deadly fashion.... care should be taken lest one or more blow their cover ... i would like to see the captain be very strict on this and usage of powers that are suspicious ... but that is upto GOR

for me, the nazgul need be in no rush, they have plenty of time, and now free from slavery to Sauron, ... for ever? do they currently think that? - maybe ... at least for ever if they can get the One! ... or at least for one of them! ... what a prize!

so, they, at least the captain, are happy to bide their time, but also perhaps free and able to mix more easliy in this "free" time ... free also to enjoy themsleves a bit and with a wary eye on each other, position themselves to seek for the one ... for surely .. if one of the others gets it , they will ultimately be enslaved again! ... but no one maybe would say that in public ...???

so there may be alliances formed and broken, but over all the captain ruling with an iron fist.

best all, BB

[Lotesse]

Gordis - GREAT post!! I was so excited to finally read what Ilmenzor would say. Yay!


I'm at the library right now so my time's limited, but - about those questions, I was thinking that

1:yes, the erasure of Melwen's memory would be permanent IF she did not get help from someone like an Oreturion type who could delve into her mind at HER request or with her permission of course, and retrieve the memory that way. There'd have to be a reason to do this, maybe some kind of inquest into mysterious happenings, I don't know - but a reason why it would have to be done. But if she WEREN'T helped this way, the Khamul mind-job would stay effective, indefinitely.

2: yes, Black Breath can be healed by the one who inflicted it. (But didn't BUZ give Merwen the Black Breath? So only Buz could properly heal her. Maybe she can still be sickish from it, since Khamul couldn't really do the proper healing job on her. Just brainstorming here) Earlier I was suggesting that Nazgul could heal wounds/black breath that they themselves had inflicted. Did anyone see that yesterday, when I brought that up? Can we do that?

3: yes Oreturion-types could retrieve her memories for her but ONLY if she willingly went to him, looking to do this very thing. And perhaps Oreturion could see her memory without her knowing, but only if he specifically searched her mind for particulars that may or may not have happened in the past. It's a hidden memory, not a currently occuring thought.

hmmm, what else...

oh yeah - I already suggested one of the horses get skittish, but not Volcirom he's already used to Viv. Does anyone read what I say here? I suggested this like 3 times, Rian.

[Gordis]

BB, I got your PM and I read your post here, I agree with ALL your points. Please read my last post in the main, if you think it fits.

Please continue. You may make ML call Boom if you wish. I was vague about the call.
Be back later.