Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Just something on a religious note:

In the gay thread, in reference to rejection of Church teachings on sexual matters, I said (with the support of our illustrious Fiery Maia ):

And, really, it all depends on how you define "Catholic". Catholicism is definitely not inherent; it is not a cultural thing. "Catholic" in the sense we mean it is a religious term. How would it be defined? It seems to me that the logical definition would be someone who believes in the Catholic Church. If one believes in the Catholic Church, then one believes her teachings; for how can you believe in something which claims that it has infallible truth, if you don't believe it? Really, disbelieving any dogma of the Church is to reject the Church itself; for it presumes that this central teaching is false; or so it seems to me. And while I'm sure atheists, Protestants, etc. think it is a good thing to disbelieve the Catholic Church (to some degree), disbelieving a Catholic dogma is disbelieving the Catholic Church. So, really, it seems to me that the Catholicity of one who doe so is suspect. Of course, I'd be very open to any thoughts on this.

I just found by coincidence an interesting quote on this matter:

It suffices to deny one divinely revealed truth of the Catholic Faith to become a heretic and place oneself outside the Church (St. Thomas Aquanis, Summa Theologica II, II, Q 5, Art. 3.).

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Just something on a religious note:

In the gay thread, in reference to rejection of Church teachings on sexual matters, I said (with the support of our illustrious Fiery Maia ):

thanks!

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
so an atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in the Christian god then?

No, I said "Western", meaning something that in the philosophical tradition flowing from Judaic heritage and blending with Greek philosophy allows us to make a definition , for working purposes anyway, of what we mean when we say the word "GOD".

I'm aware that there are other traditions - I have been most actively involved in the Eastern/Buddhist /Taoist tradition, so I realise that there are other concepts of our "Ultimate Ground of Being" or whatever you want to call it.

when I speak of god I speak of a creative force I don’t understand. Couldn’t really give you specifics because of course I don’t understand it. But generally god could be “all of the above� for lack of a better description. I really would hate, however, to line item every conceivable god known to man and every metaphysical extension of the unknown creative force that has intreagued humanity since our genesis (woops! ) and go through them one by one with you so you could check off which ones you believe are bunk and which ones pass. God is an esoteric term to me. Its not rigid and specific. I think that’s part of the whole problem here. We are trying to use our human cognitive skills to approach something that is beyond that. Perhaps the only way to approach it is with mathematics if it all.

Of course it's possible that every conceivable ( and some inconceivable ones) exist; it's possible that every conceivable entity exists- God, centaurs, orcs, Solaris, three-headed beings from Alpha Centauri, the Heavenly Host- but I wouldn't say I'm agnostic about the existence of any of the above- show me some evidence.

When you say that we " are trying to use our human cognitive skills to approach something that is beyond that" you are already assuming that there IS something beyond that- you're really a (disguised) believer

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Insidious Rex, it's good to see you here! Won't bore you at the moment with more tales of spiritual contact, never fear.

oh no go right ahead and bore us. i was siting you for that very reason. because i recalled you saying something about what you percieved to be direct measurbale contact with god or the divine but i had forgotten exactly how you said it had happened.

I'll ask though, what reasons do you have for believing God is the way you describe him to be?

i dont believe god is any particular way. thats my point. god is a big question mark at best. the point i was making is just because god appears to be undescribable to us currently doesnt mean this god absolutely doesnt exist. that is a much too simplistic way of approaching the question. A or B ONLY. well we dont know the same constraints apply here. there could be a creative force out there that we will never know because we arent capable of knowing it.

By the way, has anyone answered all the statements about God and Christianity that follow all of your posts, yet?

oh you mean my signature? no, no one touched those. cant blame them. they are great points made by a very smart man. but ive had those in there for a long time now. i should change to something else.

It would be nigh impossibly hard. It would be impossible, from the Christian standpoint, to find him in a mathematical equation. But even if you could find any God in such a one, it would be extremely difficult to ascertain it's God you're detecting and not some other part of the nature that surrounds us.

indeed. thats what i mean by it may be beyond us. but perhaps an analogy can be made to quantum mechanics. we cant ever KNOW the EXACT location of an electron at any given moment. but we CAN know the probablity that an electron is in a given space. this can be determined through quantum mechanics. perhaps there is an equivilant mathmatical application that we can use to grid out a creative force. who knows.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Just for posterity:

I've never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.
***
The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.
***
Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other sins are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.)

oh you mean my signature? no, no one touched those. cant blame them. they are great points made by a very smart man.

As arrogant as ever, I see. So, you're so superior to us superstitious morons (synonym for Christians, by the way), that Christianity couldn't have any answer for your points? Just like when Ru said that her question would end all of the discussion in the religious thread.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
As arrogant as ever, I see. So, you're so superior to us superstitious morons (synonym for Christians, by the way), that Christianity couldn't have any answer for your points? Just like when Ru said that her question would end all of the discussion in the religious thread.

Well baiting has its uses

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And what would they be?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
And what would they be?

It hopefully fires the furnace of genuine discussion. it works on Rian all the time.

[Rían]

"genuine discussion", ay?

So you admit that I actually think (which is what genuine discussion is), despite the enormous handicap of being a Christian?

(and I haven't answered your questions in your sig because (1) you didn't ask, and (2) I generally prefer challenging questions )

*note - the above statement, altho true, is made completely in the spirit of friendly ribbing*

Hi Lief!

by IRex
"god is a big question mark at best."

Be careful - that looks like a belief about God (by an agnostic)! I have the opposite belief that God IS knowable to a significant degree. Christians ... can you .... name that verse?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
"genuine discussion", ay?

So you admit that I actually think (which is what genuine discussion is), despite the enormous handicap of being a Christian?

well Im trying to encourage you all i can.

(and I haven't answered your questions in your sig because (1) you didn't ask, and (2) I generally prefer challenging questions )

well they arent really questions. i just put them in there because they were very aprapos to something we were "discussing genuinely" a month or two ago in some thread. also because they fit my thoughts rather well and isnt that what a signature is for? but no they dont require any specific responses. I was just answering Lief's question about them.

Be careful - that looks like a belief about God (by an agnostic)! [/i]?

because i said god is a question mark at best? well i didnt mean a LITERAL question mark. i see him more as a giant semi colon in a spiritual kind of way... *awful new age music starts to play*

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
well Im trying to encourage you all i can.

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
but a result of tolerance can often be oppression, and i'm much to strong-willed to actually embrace all the buddhist ideals

I just had to point this out to the "tolerance" people here

What do you mean by that, Mr. J?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Christians ... can you .... name that verse?

Bob!

Romans 11:33 "Oh, the depths of both the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!"

Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your thoughts my thoughts."

Probably not the ones you wanted, but oh well.

[brownjenkins]

What do you mean by that, Mr. J?

in practice tolerant people are often oppressed by the intolerant because the tolerant refuse to fight back (or don't fight with quite so much conviction), and i personally find it hard to always follow the ideals expressed by many religions on the subject... thus my ecclectic athiest claim:

If an evil man, on hearing of what is good, comes and creates a disturbance, you should hold your peace. You must not angrily upbraid him; then he who has come to curse you will merely harm himself.
-Sutra of Forty-two Sections 7

or in a way you may be more familiar with:

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by doing so you will heap burning coals upon his head."
-Romans 12.19-20

these are good "ideals", and have been praticed successfully in the past (gandhi, mlk).... but are very hard to follow in every situation that comes up in life

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Bob!

You silly twat! *gives Gwai an affectionate noogie*

Probably not the ones you wanted, but oh well.

Yes, you misunderstood me - I was talking about the verses that show that thru Jesus, we can have a knowledge of God (not a full and complete one, obviously, but a knowledge) I'm out of time so I'll just say one right now:

John 1:18
No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

There's a better one, but I've been on a field trip all day and have to run now - see if you can beat me to it

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

You silly twat! *gives Gwai an affectionate noogie*

And proud of it! *points to title*

Yes, you misunderstood me - I was talking about the verses that show that thru Jesus, we can have a knowledge of God (not a full and complete one, obviously, but a knowledge) I'm out of time so I'll just say one right now:
There's a better one, but I've been on a field trip all day and have to run now - see if you can beat me to it

I don't usually participate in "Bible-draws", but what the hey.

John 14:7 "If you know me, you know my Father, too. From this moment you know him and have seen him."

John 14:17 "that Spirit of truth whom the world can never receive since it neither sees nor know him; but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you."

As long as you stick to "not a full and complete one", I'm right beside you.

[Rían]

Yes, those are the ones I'm thinking of, and I have no problem sticking with "not a full and complete one", and I enjoy your company!

Here's another:

"...He who has seen Me has seen the Father..." John 14:9


And to cover those times before the incarnation of Christ, and those people who have never heard of the person Jesus :

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."



And to address the whole question of "what if God is beyond our comprehension", as in ENTIRELY beyond -

When one considers the questions: "Is there a God? If so, what is He like?" I suppose one way you could start is with dividing the possibilities up into 2 categories - a god that is entirely unknowable, and a god that is knowable to a degree. By definition, "god-candidates" in the first category are, um, well, entirely unknowable, so you don't need to bother about those anymore, I don't think.

So that leaves us with: "If there is a god, the only kind I could even consider would be a god that is somehow knowable, in at least some degree, to me. Now let me consider what that would look like in the real world around me."

And one candidate I would like to submit, from a personal knowledge of Him , is the God of the Bible, who is knowable to a degree that is incredibly joyful.

[Lief Erikson]

(Claps)

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
oh you mean my signature? no, no one touched those. cant blame them. they are great points made by a very smart man. but ive had those in there for a long time now. i should change to something else.

Lol.

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Of course it's possible that every conceivable ( and some inconceivable ones) exist; it's possible that every conceivable entity exists- God, centaurs, orcs, Solaris, three-headed beings from Alpha Centauri, the Heavenly Host- but I wouldn't say I'm agnostic about the existence of any of the above- show me some evidence.

I thought you said you'd read "The Case for Christ"? The mathematical likelihood of the prophesies being fulfilled is a real clincher, even on top of all the rest. The personal experience of other Christians is another extremely important evidence.

(Looks annoyed; has to procur the mathematical evidence about the unlikeliness of life having come to being)

If the evidence available seems insufficient, you could ask for more. The best source probably to ask for more from is God. Ask him to show you that he exists, if he does. If you really mean that prayer, he will answer it for you.



Edit: Oops, sorry. Titled the quote as from Insidious Rex, when it was actually GrayMouser I was talking to.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Just curious. . .how can you really mean such a prayer when you believe absolutely thoroughly that there is no one out there to answer you? Wouldn't that then mean that you don't actually mean it if you don't believe it? So if you are actually genuinely asking God if for a sign of "his" existence, then wouldn't that imply that you have some doubt of his lack of existence, and thus believe that something could be possible? So if I wanted to know for sure, say just for kicks, and I have some sort of prayer like that, well, I wouldn't really mean it. And if I did really mean it, then I think, deep down I'd at least have to have some sort of doubt, more likely an inclination towards belief. ANyway, I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this. Right. I'll get back in another few months after I've taken logic and New Testament. . .might just have a better understanding. At the moment I'm just avoiding going to sleep and find this discussion quite a wonderful form of entertainment.

(I think this might be part of why my friends think I'm a dork. That and the way I go on about Lutheran theology and canines and bone structure. )

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Eruviel; I thought that you did believe that God exists, that you just choose not to worship him; or are you just speaking as an atheist here?

P. S. Welcome back, Eruviel!