REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
I can't speak for everyone but I'll say where my morality comes from: Common Sense.

And empathy for your fellow Man.

Gwaimir, "Christian Europe" did not invent Morality. Haven't you taken philosophy?

Plato's morality is: Do not make the worst possible mistake of deceiving yourself. We know that we are acting correctly when the power of thinking is not hindered by what we are doing. To do only those things which one can think clearly, and not to do those things which force the mind to have unclear thoughts about what one is doing. That is the whole of Plato's morality.

True morality is purely internal.

[Falagar]

Could you elaborate?

I could try, though I'm not sure what more to say.

I decide what is "good" and "bad" from what I think is best/worst for most people.

Hurting or killing someone is bad-Reason? It hurts someone, not just the one killed/hurt but also the person's family, friends, etc.

Stealing is bad. Reason? The person stolen from may miss the object(s), or the object(s) may have been very valuable so (s)he may get big problems now that the object(s) gone.

And empathy for your fellow Man.

Of course.

[Ruinel]

"A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death."
- Albert Einstein, in an article which appeared in New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930.

[Falagar]

Just what I meant.

[brownjenkins]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't have any idea where Atheists get their morality; of course, really, much of Western morality for everyone is a leftover from Christian Europe; but really, I have yet to hear any reason or source for Atheist morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Atheists are immoral people; far from it. I just mean that I don't understand reasoning for morality. With Christians, our morality comes from God; but where does it come from for you?

as an atheist myself, i've gotten my morality from my experiences in life, good and bad... treating those around you as you would like to be treated yourself is good advice, not because it is the word of god, but because it works

it could be argued that this morality is stronger than a christian one, since it is a belief in the strength of the concept of morality itself, for it's own sake, and not just a response to something you are expected to do

either way, a moral life is ~ obviously ~ achievable whether you believe in god or not

btw ~ i would also guess that there were many moral people around before the advent of christianity

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
as an atheist myself, i've gotten my morality from my experiences in life, good and bad... treating those around you as you would like to be treated yourself is good advice, not because it is the word of god, but because it works

it could be argued that this morality is stronger than a christian one, since it is a belief in the strength of the concept of morality itself, for it's own sake, and not just a response to something you are expected to do

either way, a moral life is ~ obviously ~ achievable whether you believe in god or not

btw ~ i would also guess that there were many moral people around before the advent of christianity

Does it? What if it's to your advantage to screw somebody else over ? Why not do it?

Check the dialogue between the Athenians and the Melians from Thucydides- if you can answer that, we're ready to move onto the Marquis de Sade 101

[zinnite]

I'm not an atheist, but I am no way a "believer" in anything, especially religion, so I think this counts for me, too.

I don't have a source of morality other than the reality in which Il live. Both the Plato and Einstein statements describe me, as well as "common sense" and "empathy." If any single thought guides my actions, it is "what if all persons acted this way?" It might be simple, but it works, and to me it seems more sincere than being "moral" out of fear, which is the basis of religious morality.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Does it? What if it's to your advantage to screw somebody else over ? Why not do it?

That happens all the time, by Christians. Like I said, the majority of criminals are Christian.

[Rían]

I have just got to say : I seriously doubt that!


But like you, I'm too lazy to look up the stats!

[GrayMouser]

Well, probably, because the criminal population reflects the general population. Most criminals in India are Hindus, most criminals in Israel are Jews, most criminals in Pakistan are Muslims, most criminals in France are atheists.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Waiting for enlightenment.

[GrayMouser]

Well, probably, because the criminal population reflects the general population. Most criminals in India are Hindus, most criminals in Israel are Jews, most criminals in Pakistan are Muslims, most criminals in France are atheists.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Waiting for enlightenment.

[brownjenkins]

Does it? What if it's to your advantage to screw somebody else over ? Why not do it?

because it is never to your advantage to screw somebody over... it may be in the short run, but things have a way of catching up to you

an example, i tell my kid not to steal something, he probably doesn't understand all the implications involved, but he listens to me since i am the ultimate authority as far as he's concerned... this is fine for the moment, but ultimately i hope that he learns not to steal for it's own sake (the personal reprecussions as well as the hurt it may cause to another)... i know that i will not always be the ultimate authority over his actions... i don't want to be... i expect that over time he will learn that living morally is the best thing for himself and those around him in the long run

which makes me think of a few other witty religious quotes

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn’t work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
-Emo Philips, stand-up comedian

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
-Steven Weinberg, winner of the 1979 Nobel Prize in physics

btw ~ i think a majority of criminals are politicians, but that's another subject

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I have just got to say : I seriously doubt that!


But like you, I'm too lazy to look up the stats!

I found one site that gave stats for Prisoners...
Religions in Prison
It was a poll taken in 1997 by the Federal Bureau of Prisons of 74731 inmates. Of those surveyed...
156 were Atheists. That's 0.209% of the entire population. Of the remaining prisoners... 59974 were Christian of some sort... that's 80.253% of the population of prisoners surveyed. Interesting.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
...156 were Atheists. That's 0.209% of the entire population. Of the remaining prisoners... 59974 were Christian of some sort... that's 80.253% of the population of prisoners surveyed. Interesting.

(Kinda weird posting to myself... but... )

These are prisons in the US. I don't know what it's like elsewhere... one more thing about populations...
Another poll shows that Christianity makes up roughly 76.5% of the population, but Atheism makes up 0.4%.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
I decide what is "good" and "bad" from what I think is best/worst for most people.

Yes. That is essentially what I said in the 'Gays' thread. I'll repeat it here: I'm an agnostic. That means among other things that I do not (for now) accept any deity as an authority for what is right and wrong. IOW, there are no absolute truth. Now, the consequense of this is that, in principle, everything is allowed. BUT, I, as a rational human being, is able to declare my own view on what is right and wrong. So when I say 'torture is wrong', it is my opinion, based on my view on how people should live together in a society, to the best for everyone. My view is based upon my (limited) knowledge of the world and its history, my experiences with people I have met and talked to, and the environment and time I live in. It is a view that is subject to change.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
That is essentially what I said in the 'Gays' thread. I'll repeat it here: I'm an agnostic. That means among other things that I do not (for now) accept any deity as an authority for what is right and wrong. IOW, there are no absolute truth. Now, the consequense of this is that, in principle, everything is allowed. BUT, I, as a rational human being, is able to declare my own view on what is right and wrong. So when I say 'torture is wrong', it is my opinion, based on my view on how people should live together in a society, to the best for everyone. My view is based upon my (limited) knowledge of the world and its history, my experiences with people I have met and talked to, and the environment and time I live in. It is a view that is subject to change.

Well said, Artanis.
As an Atheist, I consider torture to be wrong because it inflicts harm on another person. Not because if I do so I will receive a punishment or not receive a reward when I die.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ru: Did I say it did? I thought I'd made it clear in several places that I have no such delusion. I merely said that much of the morals of today's society is a leftover of Christian Europe; not that Christendom invented it.

Falagar: Would it be wrong to kill someone who had no friends or family? Would it be wrong to embezzle money from a multi-trillion dollar company?

Jenkins:

either way, a moral life is ~ obviously ~ achievable whether you believe in god or not

Which is why I said that I was NOT saying that atheists are immoral.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Atheists are immoral people; far from it.

Also, Ruinel, you're statement that Christians are bad because they'll go to heaven anyway does not hold for Catholics. According to the Catholic Church, salvation comes from grace, through faith and good works. Also, true penitence is required for your sins before true absolution comes to pass; just saying "Well, I'll tell God I'm sorry after I do it" is NOT true penitence.

Zinnite: At least as far as Christianity is concerned (can't speak for other religions) your statement is completely false, and, to borrow a phrase, BULL PUCKY! I do NOT attempt to live a moral life because I'm afraid of God, I don NOT do so because I'm afraid of hell! I do it for the opposite reason; because I LOVE God. To say that if religious people are moral, it's just because their afraid is no better than saying that Atheists are amoral (though I'm sure Ru would disagree ).

btw ~ i think a majority of criminals are politicians, but that's another subject

Just switch that around, and I'll agree.

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

So, I take it your a supporter of my "Throw em to the lions" political party?

Ruinel: You can't define a Christian just by someone who calls themselves Christian. Plenty of people call themselves Christians without believing in Jesus; I personally know someone who said he was a Christian, because he believed that Jesus was an actual person. When I asked if he thought he was the Messiah, he said, "Well, I'll find out after I die." Now really, such a thing can not be considered Christian belief. As Guillame mentioned, many people call themselves Catholic while rejected fundamental doctrines, such as the Trinity. For many people who call themselves Christians, Christianity is an inherited trait. Many people are Baptist, or Anglican, or Catholic, or Evangelical, for no real reason other than that their parrents were; heck, at this point, that pretty well describes my brother, though he's probably more into religion than many. A definition of cultural Catholic:

The majority of Catholics in the world probably fit into the category of cultural Catholics. This group is unlike any other type we have considered above. Their identification as "Catholic" is simply more cultural and social than religious. They might rightly be called "womb to tomb Catholics." They often are born in a Hispanic, Irish, Polish, French, or Italian families -- and are therefore baptized, married, and buried in the Catholic church -- but have little or no concern about spiritual matters. Cultural Catholics do not understand Catholicism, nor do they seriously follow its ethical teaching. But they nevertheless have an emotional commitment to the Catholic church. When they attend Mass, it is out of habit or family obligation, not religious conviction. Being Catholic to them is essentially a cultural identity (they may even be secular or humanistic [or postmodernist] in their thinking). This is not unlike how some Jews are merely ethnically or culturally Jewish, rather than adherents to Judaism. It is also like the person who is Lutheran only because he happens to be born into a German family, or the Anglican who is only Anglican because she was born into a British family. You see, it happens in Protestantism as well. Nominal Catholics, like nominal Protestants, do not understand Christianity, and they do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ. With all due respect, President John F. Kennedy would seem to have fit well the mold of a cultural Catholic.

It's from a Protestant source, so no doubt somewhat skewed; from my experience, "the majority of Catholics" are not cultural Catholics.

My point is this: simply because someone calls himself Christian, does not mean he is. If you go to church at Christmas and/or Easter, that does not make you a Christian.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

"I consider torture to be wrong because it inflicts harm on another person. Not because if I do so I will receive a punishment or not receive a reward when I die."

As far as I can tell, you grew up as a pretty nominal Catholic; nominal Christianity (or Catholicism ) generally tends to present this inaccurate view of things, so it's understandable. However, it has often been stated by Christians that we don't believe in doing good to avoid hell or to get an extra jewel in your crown; IIRC, such a skewed version of Christianity was one of the main reasons that led to Elfhelm's detestation thereof. Please, try not to misrepresent the Christian religion in the future, even if it does seem to be your least favourite (or most unfavourite).

A question: basically, the commonly agreed upon statement has been that the rule of judgment between right and wrong is whether or not it wrongs other people. Now, a question, which I have never heard an answer to that I remember: Why is it wrong to wrong others? Please note: I mean NO DISRESPECT to atheists, or anything of the kind. But, if we are all no more than animals, with no purpose other than the propagation of our own genes, then why is it wrong to hurt another person? I am not saying that it is not wrong from the secular view; I am merely saying that I don't know WHY it is, and would be initerested in finding out.

[brownjenkins]

Now, a question, which I have never heard an answer to that I remember: Why is it wrong to wrong others? Please note: I mean NO DISRESPECT to atheists, or anything of the kind. But, if we are all no more than animals, with no purpose other than the propagation of our own genes, then why is it wrong to hurt another person? I am not saying that it is not wrong from the secular view; I am merely saying that I don't know WHY it is, and would be initerested in finding out.

right and wrong are slippery ideals... let's just say that it is rarely in your own self-interest to bring harm upon others... we are a society-minded animal, that depends upon it's society to survive... interestingly, if you look in nature, there are very few animals that kill their own kind... this may be because it is almost always self-destructive as a society to be at each other's throat's... i highly doubt the animals have heaven on their minds

i believe that most of the popular religions that have survived the test of time are those that embrace ideals that reflect common sense... and drop, or never had, the ideals that are contrary to it... this is true of almost all christian religions... i see this religious evolution as a good thing

i didn't think you we're saying athiest's were immoral G... i was just stating what i see as the obvious, those who do not believe in a god at all often live very moral lives, so whether you buy my "why" above or not, it is a fact that one can live a moral life with absolutely no belief in a higher being

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
because it is never to your advantage to screw somebody over... it may be in the short run, but things have a way of catching up to you

I don’t know about that. I think people benefit from screwing each other over (in big and small ways) all the time. It’s a biological constant.