the definative balrog answer :)

[Earniel]

There's a good, recent thread discussing what Huan was here. There's a thread about werewolves and others I remember here but I'm sure if you do a search better results will turn up, or if you wish to discuss things with a fresh insight, you can easily start a new thread. Let's keep this threads for balrogs only.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Let's keep this threads for balrogs only.

Balrogs have wings
Because they are airy, firey things.
They fly about Arda each day
Seeking Children and Dwarves to slay.
They need their wings,
Unnatural things
To make it easier to disobey.
Balrogs do not have wings
Because they are earthen, slimy kings.
If they could fly
Then say goodbye
To happy, sunlit, laughing things.
There you have it,
That's the crux
Of the puzzle every Tolkien fan discussed.
I don't know which one is true
'Cause Tollers didn't tell. Can you?
-Bill Atkinson

[Valarauko5]

I think that's probably my favorite Lord of the Rings poem right there. I think maybe we're gonna have to leave it at that. I feel that the books prove that it could change it's form, and some of you do not. I guess it's just a matter of opinion. Can we just agree that it's possible either way with what Tolkien gave us? I think this has been a great discussion. I fully agree that I cannot put forth any definitive evidence that they have wings. But that does not prove they don't have them. I also don't really think there is truly definitive evidence they don't have wings. But that doesn't prove the don't have wings. Maybe someday there will be another letter or something released that will give us a definite answer, but thanks. This has been quite enlightening guys.

[Valarauko5]

Thanks Earniel. That helps. I'm not used to chat sites so I don't navigate them well. Sorry about the divergence from the topic. This is just the thread where I know anything about these people. They know their stuff and I needed someone's help. Thanks again.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Another question that may have some bearing on the issue is what is meant when we say Durin's Bane "slept" beneath the mountains for all those years.

Was he embodied, and that body slept?
If so, that's a long time to be sitting in one, unchanging body.

Or did he sleep in spirit, only creating a body for use while awake?
In such case, there's a better chance he (it?) retained his ability to make whatever body he chose.

Or did the body sleep, while the spirit went off and did other things?
This is least likely, IMO, because you are your spirit in Tolkien's world; the body is just an enclosure.

[Earniel]

Can a spirit remained unhoused for that long? I sort of doubt it. Changing shapes is one thing, but repeatedly giving up and summoning up bodies at will is quite another. And the later doesn't seem to be a skill available to the Balrogs.

I would believe the Balrog slept in its own body for all those years, both body and spirit dormant. His form isn't mortal and bound to decay like those of Men so I don't think his body would suffer much from sleeping for millennia.

One can also wonder in what state the Balrog was when he escaped the war. Was he injured? Perhaps he needed a good age sleep to recover.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Eärniel, I was under the impression that the Maiar didn't need to be embodied at all. Ever. Only if they wanted to. They're not like disembodied Elvish spirits. They're a different thing altogether. Right? Or am I wrong?

[Attalus]

Well, certainly Sauron is stated to be unable to change into a form pleasing to the eye, so it seems he did have some sort of body. We won't get into "he only has four on the Black Hand". Fingolfin wounded Melkor, and the Silmaril burned him, so he must have had some sort of body, too. Balrogs could be killed, too, hee hee.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The question isn't whether they had bodies.

[Valarauko5]

Can anyone find the exact wording in the books on that part? I'm not sure if it said "slept". If it did though, maybe it just meant he was hiding and resting up. I'm not really sure on that. Though IMO a Balrog doesn't need to keep his form. It says the Maiar are just not as powerful as the Valar. And the Sil specifically states that they could walk at times unseen but not unfelt.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Eärniel, I was under the impression that the Maiar didn't need to be embodied at all. Ever. Only if they wanted to. They're not like disembodied Elvish spirits. They're a different thing altogether. Right? Or am I wrong?

Not sure if I can put my thoughts on this in words well enough, but I'll try. Theoretically, I agree, maiar don't really need of bodies, not like Men and also not like Elves, they only took up physical form to interact with the world. But I always had the feeling, that by coming down to Arda, they also became a part of Arda in a way, that they eventually would need a sort of material anchor in the world, a body. The Ainur, Valar and Maiar are all pretty fluid beings, but it seems that for some changes, there was a point where there was no turning back. That this materialism eventually, especially when the building of Arda got disturbed into Arda marred, came a habit too hard to shake.

There is no mention of body-less maiar outside of Valinor. Even Sauron who had the misfortune of losing his body in the fall of Númenor, immediately took another one, and even that skill lessened in time: he could no longer alter his appearance after a while, the question remains whether he could at that time even rebuild an entire body for himself. There is no mention of the Balrogs re-embodying after their body was killed. They are considered to have died with it. That's why I sort of reckoned that even if the maiar could theoretically exist without a body, they could no longer do so outside Valinor as time passed.

There's another issue relating to the Balrogs in this: there is no telling how and if the Balrogs were changed by Morgoth. Can the rules that applied to maiar still be said to apply entirely for Balrogs or other maiar under Morgoth's rule? The rules certainly didn't seem to apply to Sauron.

[Attalus]

Isn't there a line about the Maiar being more and more trapped in their current body, the more evil they performed? I don't have my books with me, and my memory may be playing me false.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Isn't there a line about the Maiar being more and more trapped in their current body, the more evil they performed?

Yes, but there are several other factors that I tried to summarise in post #178 here

[Attalus]

Oh, yeah. Well, I have seen it speculated that the Balrogs, having been changed by Melkor himself into what he considered the ultimate fighting creatures (at least until he dreamt up the Dragons) had no will - or not ability - to overcome Melkor's will/spell/instruction in the matter. Sort of like an old knight refusing to give up his armor, lance, and sword.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Isn't there a line about the Maiar being more and more trapped in their current body, the more evil they performed? I don't have my books with me, and my memory may be playing me false.

Yes, I think you're right, but I don't have my memory with me ... er, I mean my books with me

[Valarauko5]

Can anyone show a quote on that "balrogs didn't have a will to change form" idea? I've never heard of that and I've read alot of the tolkien books. Including some of the HoME books. I agree that the Sil says that he corrupted some spirits, but it would seem to me that, like Luthien did with the batwoman's form, they could still change form. I'm not trying to bring that subject up again, but if the Valar and Maiar could choose their form, wouldn't that mean they could lay it aside for a while? since it didn't rot or decay or age or anything?

[Attalus]

Yeah, but with Tolkien, implicateion and statements are two entirely different things. We are left with NO statement at all about changes in the Balrogs, which led to the allusions I mentioned above. Evil seems to be the overriding obstacle to shape-changing, on the Catholic principle that evil never changes its nature, I venture to guess, while good can appear in many forms. Evil has to be confessed, penance paid, and reconciliation afforded, or so it seems to me, who have never read St. Augustine or Aquinas.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Can anyone show a quote on that "balrogs didn't have a will to change form" idea? I've never heard of that and I've read alot of the tolkien books. Including some of the HoME books. I agree that the Sil says that he corrupted some spirits, but it would seem to me that, like Luthien did with the batwoman's form, they could still change form. I'm not trying to bring that subject up again, but if the Valar and Maiar could choose their form, wouldn't that mean they could lay it aside for a while? since it didn't rot or decay or age or anything?

Sauron was still able to change his form, long after he had been corrupted, and he was a maiar of similar descent as the Balrogs. They may have had a hard time completely changing form, but I see know reason why something as simple as the addition of wings wouldn't be possible.

[Attalus]

Especially the shadow of (nonfunctional) wings.

[Valarauko5]

Much as I happen to agree with you Brownjenkins, you should look over the last few pages of comments. We've discussed this and kind of decided to agree to disagree on the point. We're just considering wether he was really awake or not in Moria before Gandalf showed up.