Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Yay, thanks RÃ*an! I would like to answer Lizra and Val's questions. I'll do that tomorrow (it's 2:30am now, how am I sitll here!?), and in the meantime, you can decide the next vict- I mean Hot Seater.

Get some sleep! And I edited my post above yours and added a question, too - I'd love to hear your response. Thanks again for your thoughtful replies!

(ps - and just to clarify my question - the Bible is REALLY clear that "doing" is NOT what saves us. "Doing" is just a natural result of believing "Doing" is also evidence of our belief )

OK, Merry, get ready - you're next!

[Rían]

(note to participants - if Nurv finishes, then go ahead and make your opening statement, Merry, and start with the questions, everyone else. I typically can't post on weekends - too busy having fun family time! I'll catch up on Monday.)

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by inked

Pytt,

It would seem that you are unaware of the missionary activities of ... Orange-robed panhandlers at airports? (Hare Krishna)

Hence the naming of the world's busiest airport... O'Hare!





(Yes - that was only a joke... O'Hare airport is named for a Chicago aviator who died in action in WW2)

[Nurvingiel]

Swan Song Part 1:

I’d be honoured to answer your questions RÃ*an, as well as Valandil’s and Lizra’s. Unblock your ears, get comfortable, and prepare for… *fanfare* Nurvingiel’s Swan Song! (by W.A. Mozart). After this it’s Merry’s turn.

It took ages to write this for various reasons, so I hope I don’t cross-post with anyone.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Are you happy?

If so, what makes you happy?

If not, what do you think will make you happy?

I am happy! I'm happy because the what makes me happy is occuring in my life in spades. I believe it's ultimately love that makes everyone happy. In other words, no matter what it is you enjoy, it is always enhanced with love, or lessened through the lack of love.

1. Love

a. My boyfriend: I have a wonderful boyfriend who I've been dating for nearly three years, and though we're currently separated by thousands of kilometers, the love between us is still very strong. Merely thinking about him makes me happy. *happy sigh* Yes, I'm a bit sappy in this department, but I don't care. I love my boyfriend.
b. My friends: I have wonderful friends who I love, and spending time with them makes me happy. Remembering good times with them and planning future ones makes me happy. I also enjoy the present, today was a great day with my friends even though we froze our butts off all afternoon. (Note to self: never utter the phrase "It's pretty warm out, I don't need my down-filled jacket" in northern Sweden in October. )
I also have a core group of friends who have been my friends since I was 13. They are such wonderful people that they bring joy into my life even though we’re far apart right now, and don’t get to see each other much.
c. My family: My family are so loving and supporting. Even though we're also far apart, I don't really feel like I'm away from them. I just got a (very) belated birthday present from my brother, and that just made my week! Knowing we're always there for each other provides a solid base upon which to build my life, and positive stability helps build a positive future. (By positive stability, I mean my parents are good role models, and I’m not stuck in a rut – a different sort of stability.)

2. Irrepressible Optimism:

I'm a lucky person, so it’s hard to stay sad for long. Even though I had some rough times at the beginning of my second year of university, this was largely caused by things within my control. Upon realizing that, things went quite well for me. Being in charge of your own life is an empowering and cheering feeling. Considering how lucky I’ve been in my life (I had a very wondeful childhood) how could I not be of a cheerful nature?

3. Luck:

Up to this point I’d say if I wasn’t happy, actualizing 1 and 2 in my life would make me happy. But with luck you can only make it in your life to a certain point. Where I’m going with this, is you can’t choose your parents or the country in which you were born. This is random chance, and I was lucky enough to be born into a family with loving parents with a good marriage, and both sets of grandparents in my family were loving and supportive of my parents. So I came into the world into a stable environment (no family feuds or anything) who also lived in a country that is at peace, and has been for many years. Not many people are this fortunate, and I’m extremely thankful that I am. I appreciate it as deeply as someone in my position can, though I suspect it’s more valuable than I can ever hope to know.
I also have general good luck, like not seriously hurting myself the times I’ve crashed on my bicycle, not falling asleep in an exam after pulling an all-nighter (never do this, it’s very very wrong) etc. Luck, of both the important (your parents and country of origin) and less important (general luck) help create happy moments and/or situations in your life.

My views on the important variety of luck have to do with my beliefs on the allocation of resources. I’m involved with a lot of threads right now (and the mysterious “real life� whatever that is) so I’m not going to start one at the moment. Sorry inked, maybe later.

[Nurvingiel]

Swan Song Part 2:

Originally Posted by Lizra

Do your/can your beliefs change? Is that something you look forward to (changing beliefs) or expect to happen because you are young, or would change be surprising and/or uncomfortable?

My beliefs can (and probably will) change. In fact, my beliefs are largely founded on not being rigid. Some day, I would like to have a family. I imagine having children will change my views at least somewhat. Right now, most of my decisions revolve around myself. I’m not selfish (most of the time), but I am not really responsible for anyone else. With children, by decisions will always involve them either in full or in part. (Fortunately, my boyfriend also wants children. nudge nudge )

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And I had one last question for you - in the light of the many comments on "doing" in the Bible, such as Jesus' comments in Matthew 25 about feeding those who are hungry, etc., don't you think as a Christian you should read the Bible carefully and consistently to find out what a Christian does? See, I think being a Christian is not a set of mental thoughts or pleasant memories, it's a lifestyle based upon a set of beliefs on what you think is true.

I agree with this, and this is my motivation for reading the whole Bible. I still haven’t done this, but I will! Really!
I think I have the gist of what a Christian ought to do from attending church, but reading the Bible is definitely important. Ultimately, I feel that someone can be a Christian on whichever level they choose as long as they fulfill our previously established definition of a Christian.
For those of you who just came in. our previously established definitions is: you must believe in God, believe that Jesus is God's Son, and he died for our sins, and you must try to follow God's wishes as best you can. (Or something like that.)

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Telling someone you're a Christian, IMO, is like telling someone you're a Marine. If they ask you "So, where are you deployed? What do you do?" and you answer "Well, I don't really know, I don't check the instruction booklets or check in with anyone in the Marines, but my dad was in the Marines, and I have nice memories of it!" - don't you think they'd doubt (and rightly) whether you were really in the Marines or not? If you believe in God and Jesus just mentally, and not believing with your life, then how is that really believing?

Well, I don’t think this is completely analagous, but I see where you’re coming from. I think it’s more like being in university. I’m in first year, you’re doing a Masters, and God is everyone’s professor. (Priests are assosiate professors and teaching assistans.) Being God, it’s possible to teach all the classes and still grade everyone’s papers one time.
We’re all full-fledged students of the university, some of us are more advanced than others. You have to read the textbook to get the degree, but you can still be a student before you’re finished reading it.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Belief involves action. It's like someone asking you "do you believe that airplane will get you to Paris?" If you answer "yes", but refuse to get in - well, I don't think you really believe. Or you don't want to go to Paris.

Anyway, those are rather serious questions. I hope they're thought-provoking for you. I really, really enjoy how you're a thinker, and willing to examine things, and speak really honestly! I was very glad when you volunteered to sit in the hot seat. Thank you for fielding our questions so graciously and openly!

Thank you for your lovely compliments! Your questions are always very thoughtful, and everyone in this thread has asked great questions, so thanks RÃ*an, Valandil, Lizra, inked, and everyone who asked something.

Oh, and both Nurv and Nurvi are equally good nicknames.

Thank you for listening to my swan song, and all my other opinions and responses! I really enjoyed all your insightful and intelligent questions... and the other ones too! (Just kidding guys! )

[Lief Erikson]

Okay, finally able to be online again for a while. Splendid writing once again, Nurvi .

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Part 1:Rather than think everything is equally true (that is obviously not the case IMHO), I think people hold their beliefs for rational reasons, and therefore respect their beliefs though I may not agree. Rational decisions are when people make choices based on their values. It is because we all have different values that we believe different things. (That is the basic idea. What we value and why is quite complex.)

Hmm. I would remark that a lot of my beliefs seem to be based upon evidence and experience more than values. Often values aren't really part of the equation. To me evolution is one of those questions, a matter of evidence rather then values, and I form my beliefs based on my analysis of the evidence. I don't see evolution as in conflict with the Bible, but I know that Creationists have a strong ability to argue against evolution also. Therefore although I'm inclined to believe in evolution right now, I am wavering somewhat now toward the undecided column.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Yes, RÃ*an is quite a liberal conservative in her open-mindedness. However, it's statements like that that make me question the point of labels like “liberalâ€� etc. They help us organize our thoughts, but really tell us nothing about the people we label.

The labels can show essentially which area your beliefs lie in. It can show others what to expect quickly, even if they're not all of the way correct. I think it is useful to have such classifications, even if plenty of people don't fall properly into any of them.

I am a non-denominational Christian, myself. I'm probably closest to Protestant Evangelical, although it's difficult to say. I believe some things as Catholics do, and some things that no denomination has agreed to. I believe those things largely because of evidence and personal experience.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I don't think religion is outside of evidence either, but this evidence is shown to different people in different ways and amounts.

Certainly.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

People then understand this evidence in different ways, as God is very wonderful and complex,

I'm not sure I understand this. Why does God's being wonderful and complex contribute to people understanding the evidence in different ways? Are you simply saying that God shows different things to different people (which I'd agree with)?

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

and the people's different situations will affect their understanding. (How many times can you say "different� in a paragraph? Let's find out! )

I agree. I'm not exactly in the mood to play the "different" game at this moment, but I agree with your point .

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

For example, I have not had the same sort of evidence that you have experienced. Perhaps I was shown this evidence, but I just didn't notice. However, God has shown me other evidence (which you may also have seen) that causes me to believe in God.

Agreed and understood.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

God in the Old Testament is easier for people to understand. If people actually met him on a mountaintop, I agree, the evidence would mount up very quickly.
I believe (from what I have seen and felt) that God is very subtle. In fact, Lizra (and other atheists) might interpret the evidence I've seen differently, and still not believe in God.

Definitely. In my opinion, a case of values forming beliefs.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Largely, God is expressed to me through emotions. The feeling of love and joy I have singing hymns (the good ones, not "Battle Hymn of the Republic") in church, or the incredible kindness or mercy that manifest themselves in our lives at unexpected moments. I still have a very strong faith in God.
I also have the feeling that there is more to life than what we see. The Universe is so vast, we have only seen the most minute amount of it. We know just enough about the Universe to realize we actually know diddly squat.

I wholeheartedly concur .

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

About creation, I believe in Darwinism and evolution, and that God guided this process and allowed it to happen.

I right now am inclined to agree with you on this. The steps you offered I differ with on some points, but oh well .

Jeepers! I have found I agree with next to everything you wrote in Part 1, and there are no blatant disagreements . This is strange! Another example of labels not always working perfectly . I'll go and eat, and after that will respond to Part 2.

[Nurvingiel]

Hey Lief, good to see you! Thank you for your kind compliments about my writing. My previous two posts are my swan song, so I'm not going to have a lot of responses to your posts. However, I will avidly read them - they are very interesting.
I will comment that I agree with all your responses. Yes, I do think God shows different things to different people.

[PippinTook]

Hi Nurv

This is all very interesting and I love this type of thing. Still not sure I get the general idea of what you believe, so srry if this question is completely useless and all. What exactly do you believe? Do you categorize yourself in a certain religion?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I agree. I never really thought about it the way you wrote, but I like your reasoning. I believe you can respect someone and still think they're wrong. Perhaps incorrect is a better way to say this – different connotations. People who feel that everyone's worldviews are equally true probably also have respect for other opinions as the main goal. I feel a different approach can achieve the same degree of respect.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Where the analogy doesn't work:

• We know people who are experienced mountaineers can still die on Mount Everest. Obviously, doing it without training is a bad idea. However, we also know that God did intend people to be gay, because God made many people that way (details follow).

• The genetics argument really doesn't float, Nurvi. There are many things passed on through genetics that are absolutely undesirable. I wouldn't say God "intended" people to be homosexual any more then I'd say he "intended" people to be diabetic, when they are so because of having inherited this from parents.
  

  Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

  What we are not sure of is what God wanted people to do about it. Unlike the dangerous example, we do not have irrefutable evidence that being gay is a bad idea.

  There is a good deal of evidence. I don't think that one needs "irrefutable" evidence in order to make an educated decision.
  

  Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

  Choosing mountaineering as a hobby could be analogous to a way of life. I would not oppose my son doing this, even though it’s dangerous (to varying degrees) to climb any mountain. Choosing to climb Mount Everest is not analogous IMHO.

  I know that not everyone views this as analogous to setting out to climb Mt. Everest without training.
  
  I believe that there are spiritual laws just as there are natural physical laws. You step off a cliff, gravity pulls you down. You engage in homosexual intercourse, and you are going to be hurt. Therefore what God does in scripture is warn people about the laws that exist, laws that he has reasons for, just as he does for the law of gravity.
  

  Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

  I strongly believe that being gay is not a choice. More about this later.

I believe that it may be a deep psychological choice, for some. There are various things in history that support this belief, to me.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Perhaps we should discuss this evidence, I believe someone mentioned Leviticus earlier (maybe it was you?) I think a lot of such evidence is subject, and that there’s more evidence that it is not wrong. Maybe we don’t have an equal chance of being right – I have more.

Lucky lucky. Not.

I didn't speak of Leviticus. But there are scriptures on the subject definitely in the Old Testament, but also in the New Testament in several places. I can certainly see such evidence as being paltry in the extreme to a nonChristian, but to a Christian the word of scripture deserves very, very serious consideration. In several places the scripture claims to be the Word of God, and it has been believed to be the infallible Word of God by Christians from the first century A.D. until now.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

However, maybe this part of the discussion should wander over the the “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual� thread. It’s part of what I believe, but I don’t want to solely focus on this.

Neither do I, really. I don't want to hurt people's feelings anymore, and I've stepped on toes and seen highly emotional responses to the issue on that thread. That caused me to delete one post I already wrote and nearly sent on this thread, about the evidence. Some of the evidence I have also relates to spiritual experiences I've had, which I couldn't comfortably get into here.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

On being gay:
There is scientific evidence that sexuality is a development in the brain that occurs when the foetus. Left-handedness develops similarly, we know that's not a choice. Incidentally, even until recently people forced left-handed children to write with their right hand in school. Analogous? I think so.
You do not choose to be gay, but as I said earlier, what God intends you to do about that is still open for debate. (You all know what I think about that now. I'm very, very pro-gay. )

I look at different information, and receive different results. I look at ancient Greece, a civilization with a great deal of homosexuality. This became dominant after the Olympic Games were introduced, and there was such a massive emphasis upon physical beauty. People became interested that wouldn't otherwise have been. Sexual relations between adults and children became more common at that time as well, in Greece.

Further, if you look at many of the cases of homosexuality nowadays, I've heard that many of the people came from rather strange backgrounds, with loss of a parent fulfilling a certain role, or too little in the family of a certain gender. I believe that these things can sometimes lead to the rising of homosexual inclinations.

I also know people that no longer are homosexual, but once were. One of them speaks at seminars on the subject, knows enormous amounts about the history of homosexuality, its causes and ways in which it can be cured. He has a wife and children now, and I very much don't believe that he has those inclinations any more.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

If you do feel being gay is a choice, sexuality must be a choice, and therefore, you chose to be straight. In other words, if you can choose to be gay, you can also choose to be straight.

People are naturally heterosexual. One can see that from the way men and women were designed to be together. They procreate together, they fill one another's needs in ways that another man or another woman (if you're a woman) never could. They can form beautiful family structures.

Further, I am not convinced that homosexual love is the same as heterosexual love. I am sure that they do have strong emotional attachments to one another, but I don't see how it can be truly the same. Man is clearly from creation intended to be with woman. They can produce children. A monogomous match between a man and a woman has minimal genetic health issues, and is deeply fulfilling.

Homosexuality cannot say the same. There are far greater risks of STDs among homosexuals then among heterosexuals. There is a far higher suicide rate among homosexuals then among heterosexuals. Often (I am not saying always, but often) homosexuals are more promiscuous then heterosexuals.

Even based upon simple physical evidence, without even getting into the strong voice of scripture on the subject, I think there is ample reason to avoid engaging in homosexuality. Even if you are unfortunate enough to have the inclinations!

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Imagine that you are choosing to be gay. Can you even conceive this choice? I doubt it. Many gay people throughout history have pretended to be straight, even to the point of marrying people of the opposite sex and having children. But they weren't really straight; it was just that - pretending. It would be the same way if I pretended I was gay. I could have a female partner, about whom I may even care deeply. But I would still be straight, because I was born that way.

Again, I believe it's often a deep psychological choice, often pressed by insecurity, but sometimes it can have other reasons. Society pressure, things like the strong Greek emphasis on beauty, or other reasons can have impact.


Let me compliment you again on excellent writing and intelligent, well thought-out opinions .

Fare thee well!

~Lief

[Nurvingiel]

Most of the post was about my and your feelings on homosexuality. I'm going to quote your post in the "Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals" thread and we can keep talking about it there.

See you over there buddy! And thanks for all your effort in responding. I appreciate it.

And without further ado, Meriadoc Brandybuck takes the stage!

[Enter Merry]

[Rían]

OK, Merry, it's all YOURS!

[Finrod Felagund]

I've been reading and waiting to respond (don't ask me why I've waited), this is awesome...Rian creates another deep and memorable thread...I love ow people are so open about beliefs here...its awesome, and I appreciate that candidness and community, the fact that we need not worry about being shot down. It is one of the reasons I am still here.

[Lief Erikson]

Great to see you here, Finrod! Have you come ready to share, or content still to read?

[Finrod Felagund]

I think it is Meriadoc's turn. But I'll be more than glad to go sometime after him...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So would I.

[Elvengirl]

I know this should be discussed in the other thread, but I just wanted to say that I am very impressed with your post Leif. I agree with many of your statements, especially this one.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I also know people that no longer are homosexual, but once were. One of them speaks at seminars on the subject, knows enormous amounts about the history of homosexuality, its causes and ways in which it can be cured. He has a wife and children now, and I very much don't believe that he has those inclinations any more.

People are naturally heterosexual. One can see that from the way men and women were designed to be together. They procreate together, they fill one another's needs in ways that another man or another woman (if you're a woman) never could. They can form beautiful family structures.

Further, I am not convinced that homosexual love is the same as heterosexual love. I am sure that they do have strong emotional attachments to one another, but I don't see how it can be truly the same. Man is clearly from creation intended to be with woman. They can produce children. A monogomous match between a man and a woman has minimal genetic health issues, and is deeply fulfilling.
~Lief

No offense to anyone but homosexuality is an abberative act. The bodies are meant to be heterosexual and can be much happier by doing so. It is survival as well for mankind, because one can then create life and expand one's family. The bodies aren't naturally homosexual and one doesn't have to just accept the fact that your brain is telling you to be gay. I don't belive God created one to be gay, why would he have created the different sexes. I believe there was some decision somewhere along the line by the individual and that's why one believe they are. That can change.

On a side note - Rian, kudos to you I very much enjoy reading this thread, even though I am hardly here enough to post in it.

[Lizra]

IMO, that is a total bunch of hooey. How nice you know what everyone's body is happy doing Elvengirl. The brain is part of the body.

You know.....There is this thing called reality....anti gay people should check in every once and awhile.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Elvengirl

I know this should be discussed in the other thread, but I just wanted to say that I am very impressed with your post Leif. I agree with many of your statements, especially this one.

Well, I posted what I think of that in the "Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals" thread in the "Giant post of Doom, parts 1 and 2". For the record here I think it's utter nonsense. For the record here also, I think Lief's posts are very well written, and Lief rules!
About the rest of your post, well, it is more appropriate in the GLB thread.

On a side note - Rian, kudos to you I very much enjoy reading this thread, even though I am hardly here enough to post in it.

I agree, this is a great thread! I love it. No worries that you're not here much. Just turn up when you can.

So cmon guys, let's ask Merry some questions!

I've got one.

Question One:
What forms the core of your beliefs Merry? And why?

Let's get right into the thick of things...

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Sorry for the delay.

Nurvingiel: The Bible forms the core of my belief, which is the Catholic religion. Most everything about the Christian religion can be found there. For instance, the rules that we should live by:
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.
These are the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God, but there is another said by Jesus:
Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. (Or something close to that.)

I believe in the Creation of the world. The Lord is the Creator of everything. I don't think that the world was made in 6 days: most likely over a long stretch of time, but to God it would seem 6 days. God gave us free will, and Satan tempted Adam and Eve and that is where we get orginal sin; yet orginal sin is washed away by Baptism, one of the the Seven Blessed Sacraments.

[Lizra]

Oh Lord! I think my mommy's calling me.....