Egypt is the origin of Christianity, Judaism & Islam

[Spock]

I agree Rosie. Egypt wasn't a "God" country, rather gods. It was the Israelites who had a "God".
Good post.

[Elfhelm]

Rosie, where does the Eucharist fit in your theory? Must the Messiah die a horrible tortured death in order for our sins to be forgiven? Must we symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood? Is the Messiah the Son of God? Because, although I say that Tele's mentor is not translating the heiroglyphs correctly, there are some ideas in Christianity that come from Egypt.

Osiris, you see, is the son of heaven. And they symbolically eat his flesh as bread and drink his blood by drinking a beverage (not wine, more like a beer). But the need for a tortured death in order to open the gates of heaven for us mortals, that one is hard actually to pin down. Some parts of it are Egyptian, but I think some parts are deeply rooted in the collective unconciousness from prehistoric canabalism. And perhaps they can be found in the ideas of karma from Hinduism, but how this fits into a sacrificial victim (in fact, one who must suffer atrocity), I can't find a source. The bit about opening the gates of heaven, that's from Egypt, but the pharaoh only takes with him all the people who are buried with him. But these people have to kill themselves, so maybe that's the sacrifice.

But, speaking of bunk... y'know... Kill a guy to get into heaven. Not really very rational is it?

Or am I just howling at the moon?

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Rosie Gamgee

It's bunk, IMO, to be quite honest and blunt. To continue with the honesty, I must confess that I haven't read all of the posts, just skimmed. So forgive me if my replies to your questions seem a little less that educated.

I don't see how the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob could be the God of Egypt at all. Not when Israel is the one to whom all the Old Testament promises are made, and not when Israel is the one seeing the results of those promises.
btw, where does God the Son fit into the whole Egypt-thing? The promise of a Messiah? The coming of a Messiah; his death, ressurection, and promised return? Are these in your... I don't know what you call it; faith? Religion?

Well, the story of Osiris is very similar to the story of jesus: death, ressurection, promised return and all.
But I wasn't tryin to convince you just to get your opinion; just asking direct questions.

So, here is another question, how about you, do you have faith...what is your faith; also your views on other religions in general, do they relate or you believe someone is wrong about their religion and someone is right? Who do you think is right?

No pressure, take your time.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Rosie, where does the Eucharist fit in your theory? Must the Messiah die a horrible tortured death in order for our sins to be forgiven? Must we symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood? Is the Messiah the Son of God? Because, although I say that Tele's mentor is not translating the heiroglyphs correctly, there are some ideas in Christianity that come from Egypt.

Osiris, you see, is the son of heaven. And they symbolically eat his flesh as bread and drink his blood by drinking a beverage (not wine, more like a beer). But the need for a tortured death in order to open the gates of heaven for us mortals, that one is hard actually to pin down. Some parts of it are Egyptian, but I think some parts are deeply rooted in the collective unconciousness from prehistoric canabalism. And perhaps they can be found in the ideas of karma from Hinduism, but how this fits into a sacrificial victim (in fact, one who must suffer atrocity), I can't find a source. The bit about opening the gates of heaven, that's from Egypt, but the pharaoh only takes with him all the people who are buried with him. But these people have to kill themselves, so maybe that's the sacrifice.

But, speaking of bunk... y'know... Kill a guy to get into heaven. Not really very rational is it?

Or am I just howling at the moon?

If I recall, EH, Rose is either an Evangelical, or a nondenominational Christian (correct me if I am wrong, Rosie), in which case, the Lord's Supper does not play nearly the role it does in the organized religion you are familiar with.

EDIT: P. S. Love your sig, Spock!

[The Telcontarion]

This ties into this thread in an interesting way, and is more proof that what I have been learning and now believe about egypt is very credible; egypt as inspiration for the matrix!!!!
Listen to the 2nd link, it is amazing!!! But first, read the first link first, just a paragraph; scroll down to Sophia Stewart, and read!!!

http://www.innersites.com/feet2fire/this-week.htm

http://www.femmixx.com/sophiastewartinterview.mp3

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

If I recall, EH, Rose is either an Evangelical, or a nondenominational Christian (correct me if I am wrong, Rosie), in which case, the Lord's Supper does not play nearly the role it does in the organized religion you are familiar with.

Irrelevant. It occurs in Matt 26:26-9, Mark 14:22-4, Luke 22:19-20, John 6:55-6, and 1 Cor 11:22-6 so it must have really happened. And anyone who ever read the Gospels knows it. So, I ask again. Where does this eucharist fit? And I again point out that it is in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which predates the Gospels by a couple of years, and resembles the ceremonies described in historical accounts of the mystery cults, which also predated the Gospels.

So either Jesus was an initiate, or he absconded with their ritual!

But, you know, if Jesus didn't actually do it - that is, if Jesus didn't in fact duplicate an existing mystery religion's ritual - then was it put there to make it easy to convert the Greeks? Etc., etc.

It's all very suspicious to me. I just think he was an inititate.

[The Telcontarion]

Or it could just be as I have been saying all along.

[Rosie Gamgee]

I keep forgetting to check on this thread. Apologies.

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Rosie, where does the Eucharist fit in your theory? Must the Messiah die a horrible tortured death in order for our sins to be forgiven? Must we symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood? Is the Messiah the Son of God? Because, although I say that Tele's mentor is not translating the heiroglyphs correctly, there are some ideas in Christianity that come from Egypt.

Firstly, I will agree with the person who said that it is possible for an idead to spring up in two different places, completely independently. I do not hold that Christianity 'borrowed' the Last Supper/Eucharist/Communion from Egytian mythology.

Secondly: "Where does the Eucharist fit?" At the last supper, Jesus said nothing about eating is flesh and blood as some sort of ritual that was supposed to do anything for a person. It was not some form of canibalism; the purpose of the 'ritual' was not that we would ingest a god's flesh and/or blood.
Jesus Christ made a new covenant possible by His atoning blood. (Forgive the lack of references; I am posting this in a hurry,) the Bible says that without sacrifce, without blood, redemption is not possible. In the Old Testament, according to the covenant that God made with the Israelites through Moses, it was the blood of animals that was to atone for sin. However, it was still not enough. No matter how pure the animal, it is still corrupted by the sin of humankind. All nature is. And so Jesus came with a new covenant; to fulfill the old one by offering His blood, his own body; that of a perfect, sinless man; to atone for our sin.
He said at the Last Supper, "This is the New Covenant in my blood." In other words, "This cup of wine (oh, btw, they were eating the Passover meal. The cup and the bread have special Messianic significance in the Passover) represents the new covenant that I make with my blood." Then He said, "When you drink it, remember Me."
In the same way He took the bread and broke it, saying, "This is my body which is broken for you." As I said, the Passover meal is frought with Messianic references. The bread He broke was probably the.. oh, dear. I forget how it's spelt. Affikommen? Something like that. It was a piece of pierced, unleavened bread that was hidden, and then found throughout the course of the meal. It really represents the Messiah. Jesus claimed it for Himself, telling his disciples, "This part of the meal refers to me. It represents my body, my flesh, which is about to be crushed and killed on your behalf." Then He said, "When you eat it, when you eat this part of the meal, remember Me."
Jesus began the eating of the wine and bread so that we would have something to pass down to remember Him with. In the way of many Jewish customs, it is meant to spark questions. The Passover meal has a script in which the children ask the parents a ton of questions concerning the food, what each item represents. The answers are so that God's faithfulness will always be told to the next generation. It's a way of handing down knowledge. That's what Communion/the Last Supper/the Eucharist is about.
I think I answered the next two questions: Yes, we must partake of the Passover. It is to remember our Saviour. And YES, Messiah is the Son of God.

Osiris, you see, is the son of heaven. And they symbolically eat his flesh as bread and drink his blood by drinking a beverage (not wine, more like a beer). But the need for a tortured death in order to open the gates of heaven for us mortals, that one is hard actually to pin down. Some parts of it are Egyptian, but I think some parts are deeply rooted in the collective unconciousness from prehistoric canabalism. And perhaps they can be found in the ideas of karma from Hinduism, but how this fits into a sacrificial victim (in fact, one who must suffer atrocity), I can't find a source. The bit about opening the gates of heaven, that's from Egypt, but the pharaoh only takes with him all the people who are buried with him. But these people have to kill themselves, so maybe that's the sacrifice.

But, speaking of bunk... y'know... Kill a guy to get into heaven. Not really very rational is it?

Or am I just howling at the moon?

No, I can see where you are coming from. But, like I said, the Bible states that without blood it is impossible to atone for sin. That is why it was nessicary for Jesus to suffer.
Nevertheless, it was not just the death. It was that He took on Himself the sin of the world. And God the Father was separated from God the Son as He hung there on the cross--hence the cry, "My God; why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
Jesus 'opened the gates of heaven' when He rose again to life. There would be no ressurection, or heaven, if Jesus had only died. But when He rose, conquering sin and death by living anew, He paved the way for every other human to do the same, if they choose. Sin was atoned for by His death. Eternal life was achieved by His defeating death by being raised back to life.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Well, the story of Osiris is very similar to the story of jesus: death, ressurection, promised return and all.
But I wasn't tryin to convince you just to get your opinion; just asking direct questions.

I know . Ask away. Not garranteeing I'll have answers for everything--I've got plenty of questions of my own.

So, here is another question, how about you, do you have faith...what is your faith; also your views on other religions in general, do they relate or you believe someone is wrong about their religion and someone is right? Who do you think is right?

Let me cheesey for a minute here and quote Yul Brenner in Cecil B. DeMille's Ten Commandments: "Moses's god is God." There is, in my opinon, enough evidence to show that the God of Israel is the only God, and that Jesus is His Son, the means by which we can be reconciled to Him.
There are a lot of bad notions going around that are attached to the term "Christian." Hence I often get a little on the edge when introducing myself as a Christian, because most people have a false idea of what I mean.
Let me define it for you: I believe in God the Father: the God of Israel. I believe in Jesus Christ the Son; as I said, the Way to reconciliation with God. Jesus said He is, "The Way, the Truth and the Life." He said no man will get to the Father except through Jesus. I believe that unless you are trusting in Jesus to get you right with God, you have no chance at Heaven. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the invisible spirit of God that He gives to each believer to help and guide them.

Like I said, I'm on a time-constraint here. So I'll wrap this up now. Thanks for reading.

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Rosie Gamgee

Let me cheesey for a minute here and quote Yul Brenner in Cecil B. DeMille's Ten Commandments: "Moses's god is God." There is, in my opinon, enough evidence to show that the God of Israel is the only God, and that Jesus is His Son, the means by which we can be reconciled to Him.
There are a lot of bad notions going around that are attached to the term "Christian." Hence I often get a little on the edge when introducing myself as a Christian, because most people have a false idea of what I mean.
Let me define it for you: I believe in God the Father: the God of Israel. I believe in Jesus Christ the Son; as I said, the Way to reconciliation with God. Jesus said He is, "The Way, the Truth and the Life." He said no man will get to the Father except through Jesus. I believe that unless you are trusting in Jesus to get you right with God, you have no chance at Heaven.

So, you're with Falwell- no Jews in Heaven? Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jains, -condemned to the fiery pit?

What about all those who died without ever hearing of Jesus? What about those who are raised in other cultures, surrounded by their own beliefs, family and neighbors who accept those beliefs and traditions and show by their lives how those beliefs are part of an upright and decent society- they're all condemned to Hell?

Now, you were (assumedly- if I'm wrong, please correct me) brought up in a Western Christian culture, and assimilated those values- what are the odds that you, being a nice, decent human being, would have become a nice decent Hindu if you were born in Varanassi? or a nice decent Buddhist if you were born in Taiwan? or a nice decent Muslim if you were born in Pakistan or Egypt or Indonesia?

And thus would "have no chance at Heaven"

[Rosie Gamgee]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

So, you're with Falwell- no Jews in Heaven? Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jains, -condemned to the fiery pit?

There are lots of Jews who believe Jesus is their Messiah. It doesn't make them any less Jews; it does mean they're going to Heaven.
As for the rest (never heard of 'Jains', btw), yes; unless they go through Jesus, they are not going to Heaven. Let me be clear on this: this is not my idea. Jesus is the one that said it.

What about all those who died without ever hearing of Jesus? What about those who are raised in other cultures, surrounded by their own beliefs, family and neighbors who accept those beliefs and traditions and show by their lives how those beliefs are part of an upright and decent society- they're all condemned to Hell?

I will say that I, personally, am not sure on those who have never heard. Jesus told all His followers to go and preach to all nations. Why should they be preached to if they can go to Heaven as long as they die in ignorance. But, Romans 2:12-16 which says: "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
As far as I'm concerned, really, God will decide in the end. Jesus said that He was the only way to the Father. Yet, before He came, there were many who trusted in the way God was going to make for them. Even though they died before Jesus's sacrifice, their faith in a coming sacrifice that they never knew for themselves saved them. Therefore I think it is possible for people who have never heard of Jesus to realize that they are at odds with their Creator, and to know that they need a Savior, and to trust that God will provide, somehow, and be saved through their faith.
As for other religions, and the question of whether or not they can make a person right with God; no, they can't. All other religions (to my knowledge) focus on doing things to save oneself. To do more good deeds than bad deeds, or to perform certain rituals, etc., to earn one's own way into Heaven. This is flawed in the first place. How can imperfect beings aspire to the perfectness of God? All they have to offer is imperfection.

Now, you were (assumedly- if I'm wrong, please correct me) brought up in a Western Christian culture, and assimilated those values- what are the odds that you, being a nice, decent human being, would have become a nice decent Hindu if you were born in Varanassi? or a nice decent Buddhist if you were born in Taiwan? or a nice decent Muslim if you were born in Pakistan or Egypt or Indonesia?

Probably the odds are very high that I might still be what you call 'a decent human being'. But what does that do for my soul? I'm still a sinful person, despite my best efforts to the contrary. If the whole world was Buddhist, every single human being a Buddhist, and we all got along and were all 'nice, decent human beings,' this would not change the fact that we are all still imperfect people, and imperfect people cannot save themselves. Even if one could 'make up' all of one's badness, even if we could perform more bad deeds than good deeds in our lifetime, we can never erase our sin.

...And thus would "have no chance at Heaven"

Yup.

Again, in a hurry. Apologies. gtg

[Elfhelm]

Abraham and Sarah lived in Hebron. They spoke Hebrew.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/m...ank.hebron.jpg

Their descendants took over Canaan.
http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospel...2%20tribes.jpg

Jacob changed his name to Israel. His son, Joseph, was sold into slavery, and after he was freed he lived in Goshen. His descendants were called the Israelites.
http://www.keyway.ca/gif/goshen.gif

This is where Moses and Aaron grew up. They were Israelites. How could they have possibly been the true pharaohs? Because Moses was adopted by a princess? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

They moved the Israelites, after 400 years of slavery, back towards the land of Canaan.
http://www.jtf.org/israel/ooo.exodus.map.large.jpg

[Elfhelm]

By the way, it's off topic, but Rosie is referencing John 14:6. If you read the entire chapter, and compare it to the Bhagavad Gita, you might find that it means something quite different than what she thinks it means. Remember Atma means "the self" or "I am"! When Christ says "I am" or "me" try it with the word Atma, and when Krishna says "Atma" try it with "I am". Christ, Krishna, Chist, Krishna... is there a pattern here?

The Bible:


1
1 2 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
2
In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
4
Where (I) am going you know the way." 4
5
Thomas said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him."
8
Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us."
9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
12
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
13
And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14
If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10
19
In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
21
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
22
Judas, not the Iscariot, 11 said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.
24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.
25
"I have told you this while I am with you.
26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.
27
Peace 12 I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
28
13 You heard me tell you, 'I am going away and I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
29
And now I have told you this before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe.
30
I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world 14 is coming. He has no power over me,
31
but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me. Get up, let us go.


Krishna said :

The Supreme Lord said: You grieve for those who are not worthy of grief, and yet speak the words of wisdom. The wise grieve neither for the living nor for the dead. (2.11)


There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)


Just as the Atma acquires a childhood body, a youth body, and an old age body during this life, similarly Atma acquires another body after death. The wise are not deluded by this. (See also 15.08) (2.13)


The contacts of the senses with the sense objects give rise to the feelings of heat and cold, and pain and pleasure. They are transitory and impermanent. Therefore, (learn to) endure them, O Arjuna. (2.14)


Because the calm person, who is not afflicted by these feelings and is steady in pain and pleasure, becomes fit for immortality, O Arjuna. (2.15)


There is no nonexistence of the Sat (or Atma) and no existence of the Asat. The reality of these two is indeed certainly seen by the seers of truth. (2.16)


Know That, by which all this (universe) is pervaded, to be indestructible. No one can destroy the indestructible (Atma) . (2.17)

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Abraham and Sarah lived in Hebron. They spoke Hebrew.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/m...ank.hebron.jpg

Their descendants took over Canaan.
http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospel...2%20tribes.jpg

Jacob changed his name to Israel. His son, Joseph, was sold into slavery, and after he was freed he lived in Goshen. His descendants were called the Israelites.
http://www.keyway.ca/gif/goshen.gif

This is where Moses and Aaron grew up. They were Israelites. How could they have possibly been the true pharaohs? Because Moses was adopted by a princess? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

They moved the Israelites, after 400 years of slavery, back towards the land of Canaan.
http://www.jtf.org/israel/ooo.exodus.map.large.jpg

My point is that the stories concerning what you have said are all lies and have been changed from the original versions to what you have stated above. You should understand this:

Originally Posted by Elfhelm
Christ, Krishna, Chist, Krishna... is there a pattern here?

Yes, like I have been saying all along, I do see a pattern. More on this later, I assure you.

GreyMouser, right on, this is what I am getting at.

[Elfhelm]

from the papyrus of Ani

nuk Su paut ba-a pu neter ba-a pu heh

I am Shu [the god] of unformed matter. My soul is God, my soul is eternity.[3]

[Count Comfect]

Off topic, but given how far away the topic actually seems to be...

Originally Posted by Rosie

There are lots of Jews who believe Jesus is their Messiah. It doesn't make them any less Jews; it does mean they're going to Heaven.

I feel this is wrong. It DOES make them less Jews, because Judaism does not accept Jesus as the Messiah or the validity of the New Testament. Jews are defined (partly, at least) by only accepting the Tanakh - the Old Testament. I'm not here to quarrel about Heaven, that's your own opinion as expressed, but the bit about not being any less Jews is, I feel, not true.

EDIT: And a PS

The cup and the bread have special Messianic significance in the Passover

Not in any Seder (the Passover meal) I've ever attended, they don't. You drink 4 cups of wine, but their significance is not Messianic (they mark the 4 stages of the Seder) and you eat matzah, the "bread of affliction" to remind you of slavery in Egypt (aha! Topic!), but there is no Messianic message.

[Spock]

Good material C.C.

And Folks, let us try to stay with the title of the thread and not wander too far.

[Elfhelm]

I should explain to those who might not get it, what is the relevance of those two long quotes to the thread topic. Simply this. Christianity is a syncretic religion using elements of many other religions, not just Judaism. I previously showed that the eucharist was adopted from the Greek mystery cults, which developed from Osirian cults out of Egypt. In that quote I demonstrate that the "I am" is the Atman, which is often translated into the word "Self" with a capital "s". They maintain that there is no way to God except through this Self. Ask any Hindu guru who has studied Christianity and they will say the same thing. That Jesus must have been a yogi because he was clearly enlightened.

So this goes to disprove the main premise. While I am agreeing that 400 years of slavery tends to pollute the enslaved culture with elements of the dominant culture, the Egyptian ideas actually spread all over the area by their economic domination. But Egypt is not the ORIGIN of Judaism. And Christianity is syncretic, borrowing from more than one culture. I haven't even begun to address that. What about Mithraism? Eh? Chrisianity has some of those elements, too, but they are not found in Egypt anywhere.

[Spock]

Here we go again!

This topic has about run its course. Too many side trips to theocracy, narcissism and their ilk.

Keep to the topic-which I repeat, has really exceeded it's definition.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

I should explain to those who might not get it, what is the relevance of those two long quotes to the thread topic. Simply this. Christianity is a syncretic religion using elements of many other religions, not just Judaism. I previously showed that the eucharist was adopted from the Greek mystery cults, which developed from Osirian cults out of Egypt. In that quote I demonstrate that the "I am" is the Atman, which is often translated into the word "Self" with a capital "s". They maintain that there is no way to God except through this Self. Ask any Hindu guru who has studied Christianity and they will say the same thing. That Jesus must have been a yogi because he was clearly enlightened.

Elfhelm, did I copy from you just because I have arms and you had arms first?

While I don't disagree on all similarities, I think the similarities were there because it really is inevitable to come to SOME TRUTHS. Not because of plagiarism.