Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Finrod Felagund]

Also in the apostle creed, but this is just Catholic church, as in the universal church not "Roman Catholic" as in Catholics as we kno them.

[Arien the Maia]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GrayMouser
[quote]St. Ignatius of Antioch used the phrase katholike ekklesia, Catholic Church, the unity of all churches, in letters he wrote during his journey as a prisoner from Antioch to Rome around 107 AD. His use of katholike ekklesia in several letters suggests that it was already in widespread use by then.

It also appears in the Nicene Creed of 381 AD

thanks! you learn something new everyday!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
Also in the apostle creed, but this is just Catholic church, as in the universal church not "Roman Catholic" as in Catholics as we kno them.

right...the Roman Catholic Church is just the Western rite of the entire Catholic Church under the Pope. There are about 22 different Eastern rites...they are extremly similar to the Orthadox church only that they except the Pope as the head of the Church.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Sorry I can't express it better - I'll have to put the thought back on the "back burner" to simmer a bit more

Well, I get the basic idea, I think. But take your time. I'll still be here tomorrow, and the day after that and possibly the day after that and.... ect. What can I say? The life of an addict.

[Silme*Christian]

Thank you Arien the Maia (I would like to know the importance of that name, can you tell me the secret behind it?), A friend of mine told me that a "Christian Baptist" (another "form" of Christianity) only read from the King James verson of the bible, is this true?

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Thank you Arien the Maia (I would like to know the importance of that name, can you tell me the secret behind it?), A friend of mine told me that a "Christian Baptist" (another "form" of Christianity) only read from the King James verson of the bible, is this true?

Yes, there are some Fundamentalists who believe in "King James Version Only ". The argument is that, in spite of archaic language, the KJV was a divinely inspired translation, and more modern editions (RSV, NAV) have been corrupted by secular Enlightenment ideology.

Bizarrely, some of these people believe that the KJV should be the basis for ALL editions of the Bible in ANY language (including Greek and Hebrew!). The thinking is that God knew that in the next few hundred years English would become the universally used language for international communication, so He inspired the committee working on the KJV to produce the most authoritative version possible. (I'm not making this up )

Try Googling on "King James Version Only" for more.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Thank you Arien the Maia (I would like to know the importance of that name, can you tell me the secret behind it?), A friend of mine told me that a "Christian Baptist" (another "form" of Christianity) only read from the King James verson of the bible, is this true?

well, Arien is the Maia of the Sun. She served Vana in Valinor. She carries the sun (anar) across the sky. She is originally a fire Maia whom Melkor didn't corrupt. This is according to the published Silmarillion and not to Tolkien's later Mythologies (HoME) where her name becomes Arie or Azie.

and yes some Protestants use different Bibles or different translations

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Yes, there are some Fundamentalists who believe in "King James Version Only ". The argument is that, in spite of archaic language, the KJV was a divinely inspired translation, and more modern editions (RSV, NAV) have been corrupted by secular Enlightenment ideology.

Bizarrely, some of these people believe that the KJV should be the basis for ALL editions of the Bible in ANY language (including Greek and Hebrew!). The thinking is that God knew that in the next few hundred years English would become the universally used language for international communication, so He inspired the committee working on the KJV to produce the most authoritative version possible. (I'm not making this up )

Try Googling on "King James Version Only" for more.

Yeah I remember hearing this somewhere too. The Catholic church's official version of the bible is the Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome which was assembled during the 4th century A.D. Although today the English version in the US is called the New American Version.

[Silme*Christian]

OK, I see. That is very weird. I preffer to use the NIV version of the Bible. I can understand it better (Don't ask why) than any other bible. Here is another thing, I keep getting e-mail that say this:
>
>
>>This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented
>>
>>by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages... The
>>
>>following verse is from the Quran, (the Islamic Bible)
>>
>>
>>Quran (9:11) -- For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken
>>
>>a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout
>>
>>the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in
>>
>>despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the
>>
>>lands of Allah; and there was peace.
>>
>>( Note the verse number!!!!!)

Now, is this true? Or is it a joke?

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
OK, I see. That is very weird. I preffer to use the NIV version of the Bible. I can understand it better (Don't ask why) than any other bible. Here is another thing, I keep getting e-mail that say this:
>
>
>>This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented
>>
>>by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages... The
>>
>>following verse is from the Quran, (the Islamic Bible)
>>
>>
>>Quran (9:11) -- For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken
>>
>>a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout
>>
>>the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in
>>
>>despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the
>>
>>lands of Allah; and there was peace.
>>
>>( Note the verse number!!!!!)
Now, is this true? Or is it a joke?

From: Urban Legends Reference

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/quran.asp

Claim: Quranic verse speaks of the "wrath of the Eagle cleansing the lands of Allah."

Status: False.

Example: Collected on the Internet, 2003


Quran (9:11) -- For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.

Origins: No, this isn't a legitimate quotation from the Quran (or Koran), the sacred text of Islam. The chapter and verse citation quoted above is a leg-pull, an obvious play on the USA's (the Eagle) launching of military action against Afghanistan and Iraq (the "lands of Allah") in response to the September 11 terrorist attacks on America organized by Osama bin Laden (the "son of Arabia awakening a fearsome eagle"). That the chapter and verse selection match the date of the terrorist attacks (9:11) is another giveaway to the joke.

Depending upon which translation of the Quran one uses, the section corresponding to chapter 9, verse 11 actually reads something like this:

But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.
Last updated: 3 May 2003

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Yeah I remember hearing this somewhere too. The Catholic church's official version of the bible is the Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome which was assembled during the 4th century A.D. Although today the English version in the US is called the New American Version.

There's also a version, the Jerusalem Bible, done by Catholic scholars and approved by the Vatican, which goes back to the original Hebrew and Greek- the Book of Job was translated by none other than Professor JRR Tolkien

[Rían]

There was a bit I read the other day from Unger's Bible dictionary that I think sums up one aspect of suffering very well. Speaking about sin and the fall of man, it says (and I added the bolding):

[the fall is not] "predetermined by a divine decree but as foreseen and provided against by divine grace. It asserts that, but for the redemptive purpose of God in Christ, the race of fallen descendants of Adam would not have been permitted to come into existence.

*answers the phone*

well, I thought I had a free hour to get in a bit of a post on the subject, but something just came up ... I'll go ahead and post that quote anyway, then discuss it later.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
There's also a version, the Jerusalem Bible, done by Catholic scholars and approved by the Vatican, which goes back to the original Hebrew and Greek- the Book of Job was translated by none other than Professor JRR Tolkien

I did not know that! Thanks!

[Agalayth]

Sorry if this is changing the current subject a little, but... I'm just wondering, what do Christians believe about non-Christians? I mean, about when they die. Because I haven't really talked to many Christians about Christianity, and I've only gotten a few very different answers to this question. So do you think non-Christians will go to hell when we die? (Sorry if this offends anyone, it's just that I remember a few years ago someone at my school said I would go to hell because I'm Jewish... ).

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Agalayth
Sorry if this is changing the current subject a little, but... I'm just wondering, what do Christians believe about non-Christians? I mean, about when they die. Because I haven't really talked to many Christians about Christianity, and I've only gotten a few very different answers to this question. So do you think non-Christians will go to hell when we die? (Sorry if this offends anyone, it's just that I remember a few years ago someone at my school said I would go to hell because I'm Jewish... ).

oh my goodness! that's so wrong of anyone to say that to you! I know I mentioned this somewhere on here before but the Catholic Church does say somewhere that Jewish people can still be saved because God will never break His covenant with His chosen people. But I think as a whole , we (Christians in general, not just Catholics) belive that you need to accept Jesus to get into heaven. I'm not sure about Muslims....I would think that just believeing in the One God would suffice though

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Agalayth
Sorry if this is changing the current subject a little, but... I'm just wondering, what do Christians believe about non-Christians? I mean, about when they die. Because I haven't really talked to many Christians about Christianity, and I've only gotten a few very different answers to this question. So do you think non-Christians will go to hell when we die? (Sorry if this offends anyone, it's just that I remember a few years ago someone at my school said I would go to hell because I'm Jewish... ).

It cannot offend, because it's true that in our history many christians have deal evilly with jewish, but that's not the "official" thought of the church. Pope John Paul II uses to call them "our elder brothers".

What we usually say about salvation of people of other religions is that they must live as it's say in their religions. So a jewish or a muslim cannot salvate if they don't follow "the rules" of their own religion, and fall into living as if God doesn't exist (ie, making Gods of themselves).

But we also say, that if a jewish looks for finding the truth and is able to study properly texts as S. Mathew's he may finally embrace christianity.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Fat middle
It cannot offend, because it's true that in our history many christians have deal evilly with jewish, but that's not the "official" thought of the church. Pope John Paul II uses to call them "our elder brothers".

What we usually say about salvation of people of other religions is that they must live as it's say in their religions. So a jewish or a muslim cannot salvate if they don't follow "the rules" of their own religion, and fall into living as if God doesn't exist (ie, making Gods of themselves).

But we also say, that if a jewish looks for finding the truth and is able to study properly texts as S. Mathew's he may finally embrace christianity.

Since I am an Atheist, I suppose I'm living within the 'rules' of my own 'beliefs'. So, I suppose I'm saved. yippee

[Lief Erikson]

(unneeded post)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Fat Middle
What we usually say about salvation of people of other religions is that they must live as it's say in their religions. So a jewish or a muslim cannot salvate if they don't follow "the rules" of their own religion, and fall into living as if God doesn't exist (ie, making Gods of themselves).

I'm not quite sure where you got that- if I'm understanding you properly. Are you saying that you can achieve salvation through other religions as well?

That's something I haven't heard before . . . though I've heard things very similar. The "your truth is as good as my truth" type of statement.

Jesus said "No one can come to the Father except through me." The first commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The Relativistic view of truth is not to be found in the Bible. If you can come to God by following the rules of your own religion or set of beliefs, why on Earth did Jesus send out and empower his disciples to evangelize the world? He said he is "the truth", not a truth. He said that only through him could people come to God. He also said that most people in this world are actually headed toward hell. He said, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.�

If most people can come to salvation through their own religion, then Jesus was wrong when he said this.


However, this particular topic of discussion, Agalayth, is one that a lot of Christians disagree on. I know a lot of Episcopalians who believe in the Relativistic view of truth. It is common in the Episcopal Church, though far from all Episcopals believe in it. The Evangelical Church has overwhelmingly rejected that view of truth. I don't know about all the other denominations.

Meanwhile, there is also debate among Christians as to whether or not death is the end of all chance to come to know Christ. Catholics don't believe so, as they believe in Purgatory. I think most Evangelicals believe that our choices in this life determine absolutely our future eternally. There isn't any Biblical evidence either way, that I know of, which tells us absolutely what happens to people.

And for different people, God can judge differently. Not everyone who goes to hell will receive the same level of punishment. Jesus himself said that, when he lived Incarnate on Earth. Not everyone who goes to heaven will receive the same rewards, either.

There is a lot of discussion that can happen on the topic of that, but Agalayth, I can't give you firm answers that are for everyone. I cannot just judge everyone of every other religion, for I have no idea of their spiritual condition. Everyone though, must either accept or reject Jesus, now or perhaps in the afterlife. Jesus said that he is the only way to God.

One thing that needs to be remembered though, in this question about the afterlife, is that God does not judge people because of their beliefs, but because of their sins.

Originally written in Ezekiel 33:17-20
Yet your countrymen say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' But it is their way that is not just. If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so. Yet, O house of Israel, you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to his own ways."

[Lief Erikson]

None of you have to read this, if you aren't interested.
And then also we can read the deep pain of the Lord, in his words, about the condition of mankind.

Originally written in Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

What everyone has to do is acknowledge their own sin and repent, and ask for forgiveness. For God is all too willing to immediately forgive everyone, and transform them by his presence. This can be seen incredibly clearly in the prison cells of Bellavista, in Cuba. In that prison, hundreds of murderers were kept. I remember hearing at least three people dying a month, in that prison. Prison guards went on strike because of their terror of being murdered within its walls. But a missionary saw a vision of God's hand coming upon that place. He'd been working in the prison for a long time, trying to help the murderers to come to Christ.

A huge uprising occurred inside the prisons. Mobs of prison inmates, armed with guns and knives began shooting and killing. The prison guards all fled. The missionary went in, with some comrades, and began a white flag campaign. He was called by the Lord to lead this campaign, and the Lord blessed his efforts. Army soldiers were about to move in to seize control of the situation, but the missionaries had gone in first. God's hand transformed the place, and after that march years passed before any murders occurred inside Bellavista. People's lives were utterly transformed, and they went from being the most evil of people imaginable to people full of goodness and kindness. God's nature had come into them, and they were forgiven of their sins.