Abortion and Handguns - Page 10

cassiopeia · 11-19-2002, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
*cracks up* HEEEHEEEHEEEHEEEHEEE I'm such an azz but that is hilarious. Capital PUNISHMENT! you don't punish an innocent person sweet heart! sheesh

Well, geez, thats what it's called.

Rûdhaglarien · 11-20-2002, 04:21 PM

It's hard for me to explain my position on abortion. If I were in such a position, I would never have an abortion... as I wouldn't feel right about it. But, I believe that if a woman doesn't feel that she can properly provide for a child, abortion is okay... until you are so far along in the pregnancy. It's a moral issue, for me.

Guns are easier. It is a constitutional right to carry a handgun. I believe that our government is being stupid. Stupid. Plain and simple: stupid. They're just trying to control us. Read the Bill of Rights. Besides, if only police officers and such had guns, many would abuse the power. The People have a right to be able to defend themselves.

Erawyn · 11-20-2002, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Guns are easier. It is a constitutional right to carry a handgun. I believe that our government is being stupid. Stupid. Plain and simple: stupid. They're just trying to control us. Read the Bill of Rights. Besides, if only police officers and such had guns, many would abuse the power. The People have a right to be able to defend themselves

While some police already abuse power, its not like innocent people need to defend themselves against the police with guns!

Rûdhaglarien · 11-20-2002, 08:14 PM

That's.Not.Always.True. Ask my father (who is a Police officer [and undercover narcotics investigator for the MA state police, to be exact]) and he'll tell you the same thing.

Erawyn · 11-20-2002, 09:50 PM

In what way?? be more specific, i'm really interested!

Aeryn · 11-20-2002, 10:10 PM

You will always have the power crazed people in any profession, in every walk of life. Those people are a few in many.
Anyway, if only police are legally able to have guns, how much bigger will the black market for guns be? Criminals will always get what they need. The government CANT destroy every gun that ever existed if they out-lawed guns with normal, everyday people. So where will you be when the government decides to out-law guns, out-law protecting yourself if the time ever presented itself with deadly force, *whew, I am getting wordy, ill wrap it up* and criminals still have guns by the millions?

Coney · 11-20-2002, 10:16 PM

Any country that has/have allowed handguns to be legally owned have already cut their own throat

Aeryn · 11-20-2002, 10:18 PM

How so?

*damn the 90 sec. mumbo jumbo.*

Coney · 11-20-2002, 10:23 PM

Guns kill......that is what they were designed to do..........that is what they do.

The bigger the availabilitly of guns...the bigger the death rate...one of the, unfortunate, reasons why the murder rate in countries with pro gun gun-laws is higher than those who restrict gun-ownership.

Aeryn · 11-20-2002, 10:27 PM

Guns don't kill. People kill. That sounds really trite, but it is true, a gun doesn't go off by itself.

Anyway, I understand what your saying, but I don't necissarily agree with it. And...that's ok...(? confused look?)

Coney · 11-20-2002, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
Guns don't kill. People kill. That sounds really trite, but it is true, a gun doesn't go off by itself.

Anyway, I understand what your saying, but I don't necissarily agree with it. And...that's ok...(? confused look?)

Very true.........only people kill...........but they find killing so much easeir if they have a gun (and I'm not saying that everyone who owns a gun finds it easier/has the wish to kill).

Nothing wrong with disagreement Aeryn.......the whole point of these boards is discussion

Do you, or in fact others, think that things would have been different if you did not have "the right to bear arms" in the constitution?

Aeryn · 11-20-2002, 10:48 PM

I do, for the Civil war as an example. Most men who chose to fight fought with there own guns. What would have happened without that weaponry? just as an example. Also, farmers needed gun to protect livestock.
This (I think) is a Pro situation.

Well perhaps if guns would have been illegal to bear from the beginning then there wouldnt be such a big market for guns? Not likely, other countries would smuggle them here, for the bad guys.

I can't think of a way it would have been different in a positive way. I honestly can't.

Coney · 11-20-2002, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
I do, for the Civil war as an example. Most men who chose to fight fought with there own guns. What would have happened without that weaponry? just as an example. Also, farmers needed gun to protect livestock.
This (I think) is a Pro situation.

Well perhaps if guns would have been illegal to bear from the beginning then there wouldnt be such a big market for guns? Not likely, other countries would smuggle them here, for the bad guys.

I can't think of a way it would have been different in a positive way. I honestly can't.

Hmm I, obviously, can only go from example of the UK.

I have a gun license (I can own anything from a 21 gauge to a 12 gauge shotgun) I can own as my uncle owns a smallholding (farm). but it is only since the gun-laws became relaxed that we have had such events as the Dunblane massacre (the law changed that citizens can own high-calibre pistols for "sports" target competions, I believe that this law has now been revoked).

Yes, gun smuggling is a becoming more common here......but any crime commited with the possesion of a illegal firearm is treat as "assualt with a deadly weapon" and carries an immediate 12 yr jail sentence......ownership of an illegal weapon carries an automtic 4yr sentence.

There fore we have a, releatively, gun-free culture.

Are you saying that the USA would not be better-off without guns?

Aeryn · 11-20-2002, 11:08 PM

*looks around*....*nods and shakes head* No, I am saying I don't have the imagination for what you proposed.

Dunadan · 11-21-2002, 06:01 AM

Obviously, with the US, you can't make the billion or so firearms suddenly disappear. However, it is simply ridiculous to try to argue that their 11,000 gun-related murders each year are not related to the lax gun laws.

And that's just the intentional acts. If you've got guns lying around in your home, sooner or later some kids are going to get hold of them and shoot their mates! You're more likely to be shot with your own gun or by someone you know than by an intruder or stranger.

It seems that two very simple restrictions would help reduce these figures:
1. a requirement for safe storage of guns to reduce accidents.
2. a limit on ownership.

One thing it's hard to understand for me is the argument that citizens need guns to defend themselves from the Government. Why are people so afraid of Government?

cheers

d.

LuthienTinuviel · 11-21-2002, 08:59 PM

humans are expendable. don't try to talk me out of this opinion. you won't. i am not wrong, because it is my opinion. so, with all of the respect that is due here, (edited), (edited).

new edit:
i am pulling my origianal thoughts ou tof this thread because some people can't handle the thought that others can thingk differently than them.

Aeryn · 11-22-2002, 10:37 PM

i believe that abortions are a form of birth control. again, im not going out and saying "kill those babies" but if you need to, one should be able to go to a clinic and not be hassled by church groups who lay across the driveway just asking to be hit. the world is overpopulated already, and most of you may find this sick and wrong, but i also believe that humans are somewhat disposable, i see everything as a clump of cells, nervous system or not (deer and wild game that people hunt and kill without remorse or thanks have nervous systems too, no?) life will go on even though teenage mothers to be (or not to be) are sucking out thier children.

^Luthien

I think that sounds like "Kill those babies". Am I hearing things?

Aeryn · 11-22-2002, 10:40 PM

May I also state, that I believe that statement...in my last statement, that I took from your statement, is disgusting. Dam, You are just a clump of cells, I'm going to take my .22 and shoot you in the head...okay now...how does that make you feel exactly? Afraid? what? If you see everything as a clump of cells then YOU are just a clump of cells...correct? You have a nervous center, but you blatantly stated that didn't matter. So, shooting you with my .22 is alright?

Eruviel Greenleaf · 11-27-2002, 04:37 AM

. . .and now i can finally state my opinion on this matter, after having faithfully read the entirety of this thread over the course of the last few weeks, and not being able to post. . .

<sigh>

well, just to state my opinion, rather than jumping in to the actual debate yet, i am definitely pro-choice. and i do not think that abortion early in the pregnancy is wrong, um, in the first trimester or so though i really need to read up on this again...right, anyway, later on i think if the mother's life is in danger than her life has priority.
but, even if i did believe it is morally wrong, i would say that the choice should be up to the (potential) mother entirely and no one should be able to take that choice away from her. though in many cases counsel is a good thing other than that i don't think the government or anyone else has the right to take away that choice. how can anyone, i ask, think it is okay to dictate what a woman does with her body, and with her potential child which at that point is still a part of her..er..if that makes sense..*sigh* i don't think clearly when i'm tired but anyway...

i find it interesting, and somewhat disturbing that many of the 'mooters debating this subject (on both sides...) are male. just a thought.

handguns? i don't have much of a problem with 18th century muskets, but the only purpose a handgun has is for killing another human. (a full human who is no longer dependant on its mother for life, might i add) hmm. i see a difference. i don't have near as much of a problem with say hunting rifles as with handguns...those things are scary. i get slightly freaked out just having a fake one pointed at me (it was my tai kwon do class...learning how to get out of a situation like that...which only works if you're reeeeally fast and in arm's reach of the gun...) again, more on this later...

jerseydevil · 11-27-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dunadan
One thing it's hard to understand for me is the argument that citizens need guns to defend themselves from the Government. Why are people so afraid of Government?

You'd have to read about the forming of the US government and the history of America under British rule to understand why Americans distrust the government so much.

Quote:

Obviously, with the US, you can't make the billion or so firearms suddenly disappear. However, it is simply ridiculous to try to argue that their 11,000 gun-related murders each year are not related to the lax gun laws.

It seems that two very simple restrictions would help reduce these figures:
1. a requirement for safe storage of guns to reduce accidents.
2. a limit on ownership.

How do you know what gun laws we have? First of all most crimes that are committed by criminals with guns - they obtained illegally. Under the law - the sniper should not have been sold a gun because of his domestic violence charges. The place he got the gun was investigated and was shut down for not keeping accurate records of who was buying guns and for breaking various other gun laws we have. I'm sure that wasn't reported in the international media though.

I like your first suggestion "requirement for safe storage of guns" - short of going into people's home to do spot checks on them - which would go against "unreasonable searches and seisures" how would you propose that to be implemented? I know that Britain was big on this tactic during colonial times - that's one of the main causes of the Revolution.

There are plans to require locks on the guns themselves - but again - that only works if they're actually used.

It is a Constitutional right for Americans to own guns. Even though I do not own a gun - I support that Amendment. If guns are restricted from law abiding citizens - for whatever reason - then only criminals will have them.

Also - one of the first things a tyranical government tries to restrict is gun ownership. Without gun ownership - we would still be a British colony.

You might be interested in this book about the Constitution - it would explain our government and how our goverenment was formed - Decision in Philadelphia: The Constitutional Convention of 1787.

It doesn't go over the Bill of Rights - which the "Right to Bear Arms" is part of - but it was a requirement that the states wanted added in order to accept the Constitution. It's a very easy book to read and it'll show you the conflicts that had to be overcome between the various states. We were technically 13 different countries - attempting to join together.

I do find it interesting how Europeans state our "laws" - but very few actually know what laws we do have - or even how our government works. Talking on Entmoot - I have found out that most peole outside the US - don't even know that states have their own laws. They don't understand the limited role that the federal government is supposed to play and that the Constitution leaves everything not expressly limited in the Constitution - up to the states. I am for stronger state rights. I do not want California dictating the laws of New Jersey.

Each state has their own gun laws as well as their own abortion laws and that's as it should be.

11-20-2002, 04:21 PM	#182
Rûdhaglarien Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 288	It's hard for me to explain my position on abortion. If I were in such a position, I would never have an abortion... as I wouldn't feel right about it. But, I believe that if a woman doesn't feel that she can properly provide for a child, abortion is okay... until you are so far along in the pregnancy. It's a moral issue, for me. Guns are easier. It is a constitutional right to carry a handgun. I believe that our government is being stupid. Stupid. Plain and simple: stupid. They're just trying to control us. Read the Bill of Rights. Besides, if only police officers and such had guns, many would abuse the power. The People have a right to be able to defend themselves. __________________ I have a very expensive pen.

11-20-2002, 08:14 PM	#184
Rûdhaglarien Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 288	That's.Not.Always.True. Ask my father (who is a Police officer [and undercover narcotics investigator for the MA state police, to be exact]) and he'll tell you the same thing. __________________ I have a very expensive pen.

11-20-2002, 09:50 PM	#185
Erawyn Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: america junior Posts: 320	In what way?? be more specific, i'm really interested! __________________ peace never hurt anyone "Be not so bigoted to any custom as to worship it at the expense of Truth." Johann Georg von Zimmermann

11-20-2002, 10:10 PM	#186
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	You will always have the power crazed people in any profession, in every walk of life. Those people are a few in many. Anyway, if only police are legally able to have guns, how much bigger will the black market for guns be? Criminals will always get what they need. The government CANT destroy every gun that ever existed if they out-lawed guns with normal, everyday people. So where will you be when the government decides to out-law guns, out-law protecting yourself if the time ever presented itself with deadly force, whew, I am getting wordy, ill wrap it up and criminals still have guns by the millions? __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

11-20-2002, 10:16 PM	#187
Coney The Buddy Rabbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Trapped in the headlights.. Posts: 3,372	Any country that has/have allowed handguns to be legally owned have already cut their own throat __________________ Blessed are the cracked, they let the light in Beatallica

11-20-2002, 10:18 PM	#188
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	How so? damn the 90 sec. mumbo jumbo. __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

11-20-2002, 10:23 PM	#189
Coney The Buddy Rabbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Trapped in the headlights.. Posts: 3,372	Guns kill......that is what they were designed to do..........that is what they do. The bigger the availabilitly of guns...the bigger the death rate...one of the, unfortunate, reasons why the murder rate in countries with pro gun gun-laws is higher than those who restrict gun-ownership. __________________ Blessed are the cracked, they let the light in Beatallica

11-20-2002, 10:27 PM	#190
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	Guns don't kill. People kill. That sounds really trite, but it is true, a gun doesn't go off by itself. Anyway, I understand what your saying, but I don't necissarily agree with it. And...that's ok...(? confused look?) __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

11-20-2002, 10:48 PM	#192
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	I do, for the Civil war as an example. Most men who chose to fight fought with there own guns. What would have happened without that weaponry? just as an example. Also, farmers needed gun to protect livestock. This (I think) is a Pro situation. Well perhaps if guns would have been illegal to bear from the beginning then there wouldnt be such a big market for guns? Not likely, other countries would smuggle them here, for the bad guys. I can't think of a way it would have been different in a positive way. I honestly can't. __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

11-20-2002, 11:08 PM	#194
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	looks around....nods and shakes head No, I am saying I don't have the imagination for what you proposed. __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think. Last edited by Aeryn : 11-20-2002 at 11:10 PM.

11-21-2002, 06:01 AM	#195
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Obviously, with the US, you can't make the billion or so firearms suddenly disappear. However, it is simply ridiculous to try to argue that their 11,000 gun-related murders each year are not related to the lax gun laws. And that's just the intentional acts. If you've got guns lying around in your home, sooner or later some kids are going to get hold of them and shoot their mates! You're more likely to be shot with your own gun or by someone you know than by an intruder or stranger. It seems that two very simple restrictions would help reduce these figures: 1. a requirement for safe storage of guns to reduce accidents. 2. a limit on ownership. One thing it's hard to understand for me is the argument that citizens need guns to defend themselves from the Government. Why are people so afraid of Government? cheers d.

11-21-2002, 08:59 PM	#196
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	humans are expendable. don't try to talk me out of this opinion. you won't. i am not wrong, because it is my opinion. so, with all of the respect that is due here, (edited), (edited). new edit: i am pulling my origianal thoughts ou tof this thread because some people can't handle the thought that others can thingk differently than them. __________________ Last edited by LuthienTinuviel : 11-27-2002 at 11:46 PM.

11-22-2002, 10:37 PM	#197
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	i believe that abortions are a form of birth control. again, im not going out and saying "kill those babies" but if you need to, one should be able to go to a clinic and not be hassled by church groups who lay across the driveway just asking to be hit. the world is overpopulated already, and most of you may find this sick and wrong, but i also believe that humans are somewhat disposable, i see everything as a clump of cells, nervous system or not (deer and wild game that people hunt and kill without remorse or thanks have nervous systems too, no?) life will go on even though teenage mothers to be (or not to be) are sucking out thier children. ^Luthien I think that sounds like "Kill those babies". Am I hearing things? __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

11-22-2002, 10:40 PM	#198
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	May I also state, that I believe that statement...in my last statement, that I took from your statement, is disgusting. Dam, You are just a clump of cells, I'm going to take my .22 and shoot you in the head...okay now...how does that make you feel exactly? Afraid? what? If you see everything as a clump of cells then YOU are just a clump of cells...correct? You have a nervous center, but you blatantly stated that didn't matter. So, shooting you with my .22 is alright? __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

11-27-2002, 04:37 AM	#199
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	. . .and now i can finally state my opinion on this matter, after having faithfully read the entirety of this thread over the course of the last few weeks, and not being able to post. . . <sigh> well, just to state my opinion, rather than jumping in to the actual debate yet, i am definitely pro-choice. and i do not think that abortion early in the pregnancy is wrong, um, in the first trimester or so though i really need to read up on this again...right, anyway, later on i think if the mother's life is in danger than her life has priority. but, even if i did believe it is morally wrong, i would say that the choice should be up to the (potential) mother entirely and no one should be able to take that choice away from her. though in many cases counsel is a good thing other than that i don't think the government or anyone else has the right to take away that choice. how can anyone, i ask, think it is okay to dictate what a woman does with her body, and with her potential child which at that point is still a part of her..er..if that makes sense..sigh i don't think clearly when i'm tired but anyway... i find it interesting, and somewhat disturbing that many of the 'mooters debating this subject (on both sides...) are male. just a thought. handguns? i don't have much of a problem with 18th century muskets, but the only purpose a handgun has is for killing another human. (a full human who is no longer dependant on its mother for life, might i add) hmm. i see a difference. i don't have near as much of a problem with say hunting rifles as with handguns...those things are scary. i get slightly freaked out just having a fake one pointed at me (it was my tai kwon do class...learning how to get out of a situation like that...which only works if you're reeeeally fast and in arm's reach of the gun...) again, more on this later... __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!