Journeys discussion thread

[Earniel]

Yeah, great post. Quite chilling (no pun intended) to hear people so coldly (again, no pun intended) discuss the very limited prospects any orphan had on the journey across the ice.

In Hallindel's and Halweg's back-story the house of Lady Isandiel in Mithlond where Hallindel still has an appartment is also called The House of the Orphans, as Isandiel took in several Gondolin orphans herself. Now I wonder, did Idril perhaps inspire her to it?

Oh, RÃ*aa-aan... Your turn, hon!

Better start prepping a post myself...

[Rían]

Very enjoyable posts!

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

It's the characters doing the work, I swear.

That's cool when that happens

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Oh, RÃ*aa-aan... Your turn, hon!

I'm starting to compose a post in my head ... about pain, which I've been very familiar with lately When I read FoG, where Balrogs could actually be slain, I got some ideas ...

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

It's the characters doing the work, I swear.

That's when writing becomes really good - when the characters take over the story and the writer just writes what they do, not what she had planned to write.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm starting to compose a post in my head ... about pain, which I've been very familiar with lately When I read FoG, where Balrogs could actually be slain, I got some ideas ...

Yeay! (About the post, obviously, not about the constant pain...)

[Rían]

All right - my first feeble attempt at a post-op post - my goodness, I'm rusty!!! Let me know if it makes sense.

[Earniel]

I'm a very bad person. My first thought after reading was: 'Still got nightmares like that? No wonder those two never got married.'

I really liked the mouse-scene. It fits well with my imagination of Elves and how at ease animals can be around them, as opposed to around us humans.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'm a very bad person. My first thought after reading was: 'Still got nightmares like that? No wonder those two never got married.'

Which two? Alagos and Tyaron?

The dreams aren't regular nightmares. More will be revealed shortly ...

[Rían]

Your comment was helpful - I made some changes to hopefully show that this isn't a normal type of nightmare. What do you think?

The idea I had was something similar to the WK's knife shard in Frodo's body - that the flails on the whips of the Balrog could leave stuff behind in a victim's body, and that they would "come alive" around the time of the anniversary of the FoG and cause increasing nightmares and pain (in the form of heat) as the time approaches, culminating in full-on hallucinations on the actual day. Every year, Tyaron has had to deal with this, and he's dealt with it in various ways. He wants to get to Imladris before the actual day hits, so he can head into the wilderness and deal with it alone. There aren't too many survivors of Balrogs, so this isn't well-known, esp. since the hallucinations are something that he doesn't want found out. OH, and also, it reacts when orcs 'n stuff like that are near.

Too wild? impractical? needs some mods? whatcha all think? I was thinking that Elrond could find out, and finally heal him.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Which two? Alagos and Tyaron?

No, not with each other, obviously.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The idea I had was something similar to the WK's knife shard in Frodo's body - that the flails on the whips of the Balrog could leave stuff behind in a victim's body, and that they would "come alive" around the time of the anniversary of the FoG and cause increasing nightmares and pain (in the form of heat) as the time approaches, culminating in full-on hallucinations on the actual day. Every year, Tyaron has had to deal with this, and he's dealt with it in various ways. He wants to get to Imladris before the actual day hits, so he can head into the wilderness and deal with it alone. There aren't too many survivors of Balrogs, so this isn't well-known, esp. since the hallucinations are something that he doesn't want found out. OH, and also, it reacts when orcs 'n stuff like that are near.

You could perhaps link the phantom pain to only the whip of Gothmog, the Balrog's leaders. Otherwise I'd imagine quite a good number warriors suffered from this, and the affliction would have been more known (even if less warriors still survived to the age), so he wouldn't specifically have to hide it. Only a suggestion, mind.

I like the idea of going to Elrond for healing, it might even start the fellow's good reputation as healer.

Personally I would leave out the when-orc-are-near reference, though. That might be a bit too much, considering orcs never had anything to do with it. But supposing we ever get to travel past Khazad-dum/Moria (I don't remember which of the two it would be at the time of our story) he could definitely experience some unexplained 'whip lash'. But it's your call.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I made some changes to hopefully show that this isn't a normal type of nightmare.

It's obvious that this is something that comes regularly - the other expects the dreams, and knows when to expect them.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The idea I had was something similar to the WK's knife shard in Frodo's body - that the flails on the whips of the Balrog could leave stuff behind in a victim's body, and that they would "come alive" around the time of the anniversary of the FoG and cause increasing nightmares and pain (in the form of heat) as the time approaches, culminating in full-on hallucinations on the actual day. Every year, Tyaron has had to deal with this, and he's dealt with it in various ways. He wants to get to Imladris before the actual day hits, so he can head into the wilderness and deal with it alone. There aren't too many survivors of Balrogs, so this isn't well-known, esp. since the hallucinations are something that he doesn't want found out. OH, and also, it reacts when orcs 'n stuff like that are near.

Too wild? impractical? needs some mods? whatcha all think? I was thinking that Elrond could find out, and finally heal him.

Does he know that he will find Glorfindel at Imladris? It's no secret that he's there, but Tyaron might not have thought about it.

And Glorfindel is NOT a survivor of the Balrog. His body perished, and I expect that the new body he was given, does not retain such reminders of the Balrog encounter - so he wouldn't know about that detail.

Having Elrond heal him sounds great. But I would agree about leaving Orcs out of it. I don't think Frodo's wound gave him extra pain near Orcs - he needed Sting's blue light to warn him of those.

A different question - would it be OK for me to post "Rameldir's" text as a separate story on fanfiction.net? I would leave out the name details on Erufailon's cousins, but otherwise give Willow credit for beta-reading.

[Willow Oran]

that the flails on the whips of the Balrog could leave stuff behind in a victim's body, and that they would "come alive"

This totally makes me think of evil jellyfish... but that's just random. In the context of the story I think it works. You don't even need the evil magicy residue explanation if you don't want it. Remember elves are supposed to have perfect memories, which means that the effects of a traumatic effect could last much longer and more strongly in elves than in mortals and if we extend that to sense-memory, it makes sense that Tyaron would being experiencing flare-ups of old injuries now and again and especially nearer to the anniversary of the events where he got them.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

You could perhaps link the phantom pain to only the whip of Gothmog, the Balrog's leaders. Otherwise I'd imagine quite a good number warriors suffered from this, and the affliction would have been more known (even if less warriors still survived to the age), so he wouldn't specifically have to hide it. Only a suggestion, mind.

Hmm, yes - good suggestion, I'll think about it. Or also, it was well-known at first, but now there are not many Balrog-survivors around so it's not well known. I'll think about it. The idea was that the hallucinations are kind of like Frodo seeing Bilbo as an orc - the person will see everyone, even friends, as evil creatures trying to get at him in the ruins of Gondolin, and he'll naturally try to kill them. He would have to either go by himself in the wilderness and last it out, or be tied up or something. And that's kind of embarrassing to a strong guy - to be unable to stop yourself from attacking your friends because you can't control being taken over by hallucinations from years and years ago. Anyway, just an idea.

I like the idea of going to Elrond for healing, it might even start the fellow's good reputation as healer.

That's what I was thinking - glad the idea sounds good.

Personally I would leave out the when-orc-are-near reference, though. That might be a bit too much, considering orcs never had anything to do with it. But supposing we ever get to travel past Khazad-dum/Moria (I don't remember which of the two it would be at the time of our story) he could definitely experience some unexplained 'whip lash'. But it's your call.

OK, yes, sounds like too much - I took it out. I'll keep in mind your "whip-lash" idea

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

It's obvious that this is something that comes regularly - the other expects the dreams, and knows when to expect them.

I'm not sure if you read the earlier version or not, but I made that idea a little stronger.

Does he know that he will find Glorfindel at Imladris? It's no secret that he's there, but Tyaron might not have thought about it.

Hmm, hadn't thought about it yet - but as a fellow fighter at Gondolin, and one also of high lineage, I imagine he would keep track somewhat of Glor. Probably he would know something like "I've heard that Glor has come back and is perhaps at Imladris". Refresh my memory - how long has Glor been back?

And Glorfindel is NOT a survivor of the Balrog. His body perished, and I expect that the new body he was given, does not retain such reminders of the Balrog encounter - so he wouldn't know about that detail.

OK, that's fine.

Having Elrond heal him sounds great. But I would agree about leaving Orcs out of it. I don't think Frodo's wound gave him extra pain near Orcs - he needed Sting's blue light to warn him of those.

Sounds good.

A different question - would it be OK for me to post "Rameldir's" text as a separate story on fanfiction.net? I would leave out the name details on Erufailon's cousins, but otherwise give Willow credit for beta-reading.

Sure! Whatever you write is yours

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

This totally makes me think of evil jellyfish... but that's just random. In the context of the story I think it works. You don't even need the evil magicy residue explanation if you don't want it. Remember elves are supposed to have perfect memories, which means that the effects of a traumatic effect could last much longer and more strongly in elves than in mortals and if we extend that to sense-memory, it makes sense that Tyaron would being experiencing flare-ups of old injuries now and again and especially nearer to the anniversary of the events where he got them.

I'll think about it, but I was thinking of Elrond hearing about the problem, and asking to be around when the hallucinations come on (because of his healing abilities, he might be able to help), then seeing something (it kind of comes closer to the surface somehow as evidenced by the physical changes in the scars), then specifically cutting into his body during the hallucinations, and finding and removing some type of substance, and the hallucinations stopping immediately. I'll see how the story develops, though, and decide when the time comes. But the input from you guys is helpful!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Or also, it was well-known at first, but now there are not many Balrog-survivors around so it's not well known.

But lets not forget that Elves have long memories. The children of then may now still remember seeing their fathers and other surviving warriors struggle with the affliction. I doubt it could have been well hidden the first time, for instance.

The idea was that the hallucinations are kind of like Frodo seeing Bilbo as an orc - the person will see everyone, even friends, as evil creatures trying to get at him in the ruins of Gondolin, and he'll naturally try to kill them. He would have to either go by himself in the wilderness and last it out, or be tied up or something. And that's kind of embarrassing to a strong guy - to be unable to stop yourself from attacking your friends because you can't control being taken over by hallucinations from years and years ago. Anyway, just an idea.

That could work, but it's definitely something you shouldn't go overboard with. If the halucinations are so strong, the chances of this thing being known are far larger than something less violent like Frodo's recurring weak and ill feeling on the anniversary of the stabbing.

In Frodo's case, seeing Bilbo as a wrinkled (orcish-looking in the movie) creature, was due to the Ring, not his wound.

(And I suddenly remember what this idea reminded me of, the celtic tale of Tain Bó. The knights of Ulster suffered from a equally embarrasing curse that made them weak and ill for several days when the realm was in danger. They got it for forcing a pregnant women to win a race, which I suppose is a far more embarrassing reason that fighting a balrog...)

I'll keep in mind your "whip-lash" idea

Depending on which way we travel to Lothlorien, we could come pretty close, or decide maybe to visit the Nimrodel if we want to get that story-hook. Although I remember now Tyaron would have been healed by Elrond by then. But maybe Elrond won't be able to lift the entire shadow off Tyaron, since it's been so many years he carried it around.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Remember elves are supposed to have perfect memories, which means that the effects of a traumatic effect could last much longer and more strongly in elves than in mortals and if we extend that to sense-memory, it makes sense that [...]

I invented a somewhat similar trauma for Rameldir - if he ever touches a sword, he relives those terrible seconds when an Orc killed his mother in front of his eyes (at the age of ten, fleeing Gondolin). A dagger is a bit better, but will still give him those same seconds as a nightmare the next night.
This is why he's an archer.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm not sure if you read the earlier version or not, but I made that idea a little stronger.

I don't think I read the first version.

Hmm, hadn't thought about it yet - but as a fellow fighter at Gondolin, and one also of high lineage, I imagine he would keep track somewhat of Glor. Probably he would know something like "I've heard that Glor has come back and is perhaps at Imladris". Refresh my memory - how long has Glor been back?

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Quote: "What are the theories of when Glorfindel was returned to Middle-earth?
I'm sure Tolkien has got at least one theory that we can use."

There are about three, but the final one had Glorfindel coming back to Arda via Numenor during or just before the Year of Dread. I'll go with that one if Rian okays him as a character. Keep the poor elf nice and disoriented.

So he's been in Lindon for about a century, went with Elrond's force in 1695, got besieged in Rivendell, and has been there for the last twenty years.
It would be known that he was sent with Elrond.

[Willow Oran]

And I suddenly remember what this idea reminded me of, the celtic tale of Tain Bó. The knights of Ulster suffered from a equally embarrasing curse that made them weak and ill for several days when the realm was in danger. They got it for forcing a pregnant women to win a race, which I suppose is a far more embarrassing reason that fighting a balrog...)

That wasn't so much a PTSD type of thing as a 'you are now cursed to periodically suffer debilitating womanly cramps' type of curse. Definitely more embarassing.

[Earniel]

Ah, I knew I was forgetting something. That's indeed a more accurate description.

[Willow Oran]

Yeah, she went in to labor or something at the end of the race and then she cursed them all to have to suffer the same pain. Gotta love the Tain.

I was thinking of Elrond hearing about the problem, and asking to be around when the hallucinations come on (because of his healing abilities, he might be able to help), then seeing something (it kind of comes closer to the surface somehow as evidenced by the physical changes in the scars), then specifically cutting into his body during the hallucinations, and finding and removing some type of substance, and the hallucinations stopping immediately.

Wouldn't any substance have broken down or been noticed much earlier? It's been like 2,000 years since it would have entered his body! It also seems like having the spiritual/mental affliction suddenly a wholly physical one curable by the removal of a foriegn irritant is a little too easy.

[Varnafindë]

Another post by Willow and I together - and we don't write one character each, we write one section each, and then invite edits.

She challenged both Rameldir and myself about his trauma - he thought nothing could be done about it, but if there is hope for at least some measure of success, he would try. As the trauma is a major element only in an earlier story, it's possible for me as his storyteller to lessen the impact of it from now on.

This is one of the interesting parts of RPing, different from writing as an independent author