The Spiritual Life in Weapons

[SonOfSamWise]

What are countless examples of how Tolkien imbued weaponry with spiritual magic?

The following link is an article that appeared in Military.Com.


http://www.military.com/news/article...rom-scope.html


Political Correctness is an insidious, stealth and destructive foe:
A nefarious, vampiric shadow that sucks our yoke, leaving empty shells as it slithers like a venomous serpent through the heart our culture – sometimes pausing to coil for a strike.
Something timelessly profound, priceless and luminous is being pilfered unawares from our “Shining City on a Hill.”

“No orc-tools these! …they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.”

“The Lord of the Rings, The Departure of Boromir.”

-----------------------

“So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.”

“The Lord of the Rings, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.”

[Aikanáro]

This would be better placed in another forum: the connection to 'Lord of the Rings Books' is tenuous at best.

I can't see why anyone would want quotations from a holy book they value placed on weapons, of all things. In the real world as opposed to any fictional-created sort.

Hopefully a loving God won't be helping anyone to kill.

[Earniel]

Are you seriously comparing a gun manufacturer that wastes times and resources on putting bible-quotes on weapons, to magical spells put on weapons which were most likely specifically designed to deal with magical ring-wraiths?

[SonOfSamWise]

Tolkien made a deliberate point of keeping all elements of his work, temporal and spiritual, both independent and autonomous of outside influence.
This is what makes his work timeless and open to interpretation in the context of ever-changing times.

But who can deny the spiritual life wrought into – not only the weaponry – but in everything in Middle Earth?

Narsil was wound with the powers of the sun and moon.

Glamdring can be defined as a dissembling hammer to the foes of who he who wields it.

What similarities are there between Gwaihir and a Huey?

What is the difference between the black breath and clinical depression; Athelas and antidepressants?

A Palantir and the internet?

Night vision goggles and a sword that glows blue when the enemy is near?

As my OP indicates, and as Tolkien made clear, “No other blade,” “wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor,” “would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter…”

Are the spiritual powers wound into the lives of these weapons worthy of examination?

Do they have parallels in everyday life?

[Earniel]

Hm, I draw the line at magical spells for weapons in a fictional world, but saying those weapons have spiritual life infused in them is a leap too far for me.

The only blade remotely approaching having a mind (but not life) is Turin's black blade and that one is a class apart, as far as I'm concerned.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by SonOfSamWise

Tolkien made a deliberate point of keeping all elements of his work, temporal and spiritual, both independent and autonomous of outside influence.

I feel that this is a tenuous reason to draw such comparisons, considering that Tolkien would not have known about some of those things. Like the Internet.

The majority of Tolkien's ideas draw VERY heavily on previous mythology. The idea of magical weapons was not drawn from the weapons of Tolkien's time, but from ancient greco-roman/Norse mythology about the gods/heros and their magical weapons.

Do they have parallels in everyday life?

What you are doing here is attempting to view Tolkien's work from a certain connective viewpoint. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but what you describe can be done with ANY story, be it a children's bed time story or the bible. Or with anything in life... for example I could tell you a story of how much I love my dog and how I take her for walks, let her sleep on my bed, and how I make sure she has food and water, and you could say that the relationship is symbolic of man's need for companionship.



I also find your original post to be a disturbing and unjust comparison. Keep in mind that orcs were twisted versions of elves, and have black, destructive hearts full of hate. In a small way you could compare that to terrorists, but keep in mind that the war you mention is not a holy war, and it is not directly a war against 'evil' people. Many of the people who are fighting are fighting against what they see as an invasion of their culture, religion, and land. Orcs fought and killed because they loved to fight and kill. You are talking about human beings. Guns do not have souls/spirits, nor does printing a reference to a bible verse give them that soul/spirit, and I think you would be very hard pressed to find any religious doctrine in any group that truly believes that an inanimate object can be imbued by a human with a soul or spirit.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Hm, I draw the line at magical spells for weapons in a fictional world, but saying those weapons have spiritual life infused in them is a leap too far for me.

The only blade remotely approaching having a mind (but not life) is Turin's black blade and that one is a class apart, as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps not spiritual life, but there is, I think, a certain numinous quality, a sense of power, of a greater reality, that Tolkien weaves around many items, the Silmarils, the Rings, blades from Numenor and the Elves. "Spiritual" isn't really the right word, but there is something more to them than to any old sword.

Of course, carving Elven letters on a sword would be purely decorative; it doesn't give it that connection with the ancient powers which these other objects have. How much more with mass-producing guns with sequences of numbers and letters stamped on them!

Tess has a good point; even the groups Western powers are supposedly waging "war" on see their battle as defensive (which seems reasonable, when we're in their countries, eh?), whereas the orcs fight for the purposes of domination. If anything, they are the ones who are trying to confront and overturn the powers of domination, whether military, political, or cultural.

And now that I've managed to turn the United States into Mordor, I'll leave you to chew on that for a while.

[SonOfSamWise]

Not so much spiritual life, rather, spiritual power – a supernatural endowment, the capacity of which is contingent upon the will, craft and even the heritage of he who wields it.

For example, the One Ring, in the hands of Gollumn, did nothing more than turn him into a low-life, murdering thief that was slowly turning into an abject and, comparatively speaking, prostrate wraith.

However, in the hands of say, Gandalf, it would channel a power so terrifying that he dared not possess it.

I’m not sure what was “defensive” about the 9/11 attack, the bombings in Britain and Spain, or the laundry list of other offensive attacks jihadists perpetrated on each other and on Westerners over the past 35 years.
Radical Islam is imperialistic.
Jihadists murder each other and innocent Muslims with wonton disregard, use Muslim civilians as shields and treat their children and women like property.

Similar to what Frodo told Samwise after the orcs hacked each other to pieces at the tower of Cirith Ungol, ‘the only thing that would stop them from killing each other would be for them to join together in their efforts to kill the infidels.’

[Gwaimir Windgem]

"Supernatural" is the wrong word. Preternatural fits better. It's not a transcending of nature, but an elevated nature.

I'm not talking about 9/11. I'm pretty sure there were none of these guns present at 9/11. I'm talking about the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq. When you come into someone's country with guns blazing, their reaction is the textbook definition of "defensive."

You can say that radical Islam is violent, destructive, certainly, but not imperialistic. Radical Islam is too "fringe" to be an empire.

Globalistic US capitalism, on the other hand, does a fine job of propagating cultural imperialism.

[Valandil]

Yet Radical Islam has managed to have a lot of sway. A lot of people REALLY watch what they say, knowing that if they're not careful enough someone may be out to get them.

And who wants radical Islam to be a presence where THEY live? I think there is an imperial aspect as well. I've heard that if you follow these things, that once a country is 33% Muslim, there is a revolution. Apparently they don't all have to even be 'radical'. One never needs a majority - just a very determined minority. The same was true of the Nazis in Germany, and they sure became something that had to be addressed and dealt with.

As for the US' recent/present actions:

In Afghanistan - we were attacked, rather dramatically, by a group that was harbored and supported by those in authority.

In Iraq - this is tough to sort out, in retrospect. But at the time we went in, EVERYONE thought they had WMD's - including British, German and Russian intelligence. And they clearly had no compunctions about using them (witness prior gas attacks on Kurds within their own country). Nobody else wanted to do anything about it.

So please hold off on the US-bashing.

[Valandil]

SonofSamWise - this is actually an interesting thought. I've followed along without saying anything until just above.

In this case, I don't think the intent of the weaponmakers was to place any kind of a spell or charm to defeat the enemy on those scopes though. I think it was just intended as a blessing on the users. We all want to see our young men (well - and women now too!) eventually come home safely. I think that company making those scopes just tried to send a little blessing along with them in the only way they could, and in keeping with their (this company's - or the owner of the company's) beliefs.

[SonOfSamWise]

What was the "Panty-Bomber," (i.e. Umar Farouk Abdulmutalla, a.k.a. "The Fruit-of-Kaboom-Bomber,") defending?

A. Yeman
B. Nigeria
C. Dearborn, MI.
D. His Second Amendment Right to Bear Briefs.

.

[The Gaffer]

This is exactly the sort of mumbo-jumbo that turns people into jihadists in the first place.

[SonOfSamWise]

Hey Valandil, I looked at a lot of your work and though I don’t think I’m worthy of comment, I’ll say it’s a hankering and numinous passion.

After reading The Lord of the Rings, I imagined and was fascinated by the infinite and intergenerational legions of souls taken by the spell.

The letters, the languages: workshops, sets and props – much of which was inspired, mapped and crafted posthumously.

Incantations, invocations etch runes into the soul, enrapturing heart and guiding hand.
Wafting mists and visions in the senses, Elvish dreams in wakeful sleep.

Reuel is quite the spellbinding conjurer.

[GrayMouser]

All through history religious leaders have blessed both the men and the weapons of war, particularly if the enemy worshipped different Gods or were heretics of one form or another.

Every German soldier in the Wehrmacht had "Gott Mit Uns" inscribed on his belt buckle during WWII.

Lincoln supposedly said that the question was not whether God was on our side, but whether we were on His.

(Though another quote has the true Lincoln touch. Asked at the beginning of the war whether he thought he had God on his side, Lincoln replied "I'd like to have God on my side, but I must have Kentucky.")

Many people believed that God took sides in the Cold War, and now view the campaigns against Islamic terrorism the same way. To them, it is a Crusade against infidels (and obviously al Qaeda views it in the same way. People holding this belief include many in the US military:

Lt. General William Boykin, whose title is under secretary of defense for intelligence and war-fighting support, is a rightwing evangelical Christian.

In full military regalia, he's been speaking before like-minded audiences, telling them that the United States is a "Christian nation" and that Muslims worship an "idol," not a "real God," as NBC and The New York Times have reported.

The commander of U.S. troops in Somalia during the days of Black Hawk Down, General Boykin tells Christian audiences of how he encountered a Muslim warlord who invoked Allah. Boykin tells the audience: "Well, you know what I knew, that my God was bigger than his."

It gets wackier.

General Boykin, at some of his presentations, shows slides of Mogadishu with objects in the sky that he calls representations of Satan.

And he says that the only reason Bush is in the White House is because of divine intervention.

"The majority of Americans did not vote for him," he said. "Why is he there? ... Because God put him there for a time such as this."

And if you believe God intervenes in human history, and you're fighting a Holy War, why not invoke His blessings on your weapons?

Valandil, you might be right about this just being blessings, but I doubt it.

These were night-sight scopes, for gathering and intensifying light- and every verse had a reference to Jesus being the light. Coincidence? or an attempt to connect the power of Christ with the efficacy of the weapon?

[SonOfSamWise]

Great point, GrayMouser, (Is that a gray German sniper rifle? I don’t blame Lincoln for revering those from Kentucky. )

I do wonder where the quote is from, however, especially the “wackier” part.

Here is a question posed by an Army Staff Sergeant.

“Does this mean that a captured scope won’t be used by the enemy?”

http://www.military.com/news/article...rom-scope.html

“Ugluk took them from us. How he glared! At first I thought he was going to stab me, but he threw the things away as if they burned him.”
--- The Lord of the Rings, Flotsam and Jetsam. ---



BTW – How did jetsam get in Middle Earth?

[GrayMouser]

Ooops, sorry- posting sources is something I'm usually a stickler about.

http://www.progressive.org/node/1037

In this case it's frpom a left-wing site, but if you just google "Boykin " you'll get plenty of confirmation.

The problem is not with the enemy, it's with US soldiers of other faiths, and even more importantly, the Muslims that the Americans are supposed to be allied with and training. What would their reaction be to something that could easily be construed as a deliberate attempt to violate their faith?

"If you use this weapon, you are accepting the mesage on it, and ceasing to be a Muslim."

Great point, GrayMouser, (Is that a gray German sniper rifle?

Ouch! Took me a minute to get that one.

Since you're so up on your military history, I'm sure you remember the Sepoy mutiny- greasing cartridges with pig lard and/or beef tallow- even though the Company withdrew the original plan, the fat was already in the fire.

[GrayMouser]

On the topic of weapons, how about Bard the Bowman's Black Arrow?

I doubt if it was endowed with any special spells during its making; was its power simply due to its being a very good arrow in a functional sense, thus leading Bard to rely on it more (like a well-made golf club?)

I would guess that in a case like that, the intrinsic excellence of it somehow endowed it with a special power above other arrows; it possessed "virtue" in the old sense of the word.

[SonOfSamWise]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

... it's with US soldiers of other faiths, ... Muslims that the Americans are supposed to be allied with and training.

Good point.
The Sepoy mutiny is an appropriate cautionary tale.
Maybe they can skip molding them into the castings and let each warrior wind their own personal spells onto their weapons.

Remember the sniper in "Saving Private Ryan?"

He kissed a crucifix and said prayers while shooting folks, imbuing each shot with the virtue of his own spirit.

A great golf club does not a Tiger Woods make.

[SonOfSamWise]

Speaking of the Sepoy rebellion, what’s the difference between gays in the military and animal fat or bible passages on weapons?

Are not all of these elements of Western culture offensive to Muslims and/or Hindus?

Would not Muslims and/or Hindus loathe gays serving openly in the US military the same as they would animal fat used to grease weapons, the desecration of cattle, or Christian inscriptions on optics?

What will result, after the elimination of the “don’t-ask-don’t-tell” policy, when Al Qaeda and the Taliban (and Muslims in general) realize that the mountains and streets of the Middle East are swarming with homosexuals like an army of (to them) orcs?