Lament for Susan Pevensie

[Midge]

It's Digory, not Digby.

GM, you don't understand. Once they have left this world for "a bigger and brighter" one, they don't think on the terms of this world. It is morbid to feel joy at the thought of someone dying here (ever seen "Arsenic and Old Lace?").

In the "bigger and brighter" place, they will see it as a permanent arrival there instead of a permanent departure from here. And as I pointed out more than a year ago, the only emotion they had was extreme joy; they couldn't feel afraid. I would say that means that they couldn't feel sad or disappointed or any other negative emotions. They could still feel for Susan, but I suspect that it was a continuation of their joy. They felt joy that she didn't die in the train crash, so as to have a second chance to abandon her idolatry and become close to God (or Aslan, as the case may be).

You do bring up an interesting point: Does Lewis expect anyone to feel sorry for the five younger of the Seven who die? I don't think so. It is just assumed that the Narnia-within-the-Narnia is infinitely better than the institutions that they haven't experienced yet, like marriage, a career, a family, etc. I think that we are meant to feel sorry for Susan who is not certain to join them.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Midge

It's Digory, not Digby.

:blush: And one of my favorites, too.

GM, you don't understand. Once they have left this world for "a bigger and brighter" one, they don't think on the terms of this world. It is morbid to feel joy at the thought of someone dying here (ever seen "Arsenic and Old Lace?").

I understand, I just disagree. But, according to your beliefs, why is it morbid to feel joy at somebody dying? Shouldn't you be happy? Even the loss shouldn't be the sadness of departure- after all you know you'll be seeing them again, in a better place. Really, the feeling should be one of envy- they get to go on holiday early, while you're stuck at work- yet somehow no religion seems to actually view it that way.

In the "bigger and brighter" place, they will see it as a permanent arrival there instead of a permanent departure from here. And as I pointed out more than a year ago, the only emotion they had was extreme joy; they couldn't feel afraid. I would say that means that they couldn't feel sad or disappointed or any other negative emotions. They could still feel for Susan, but I suspect that it was a continuation of their joy. They felt joy that she didn't die in the train crash, so as to have a second chance to abandon her idolatry and become close to God (or Aslan, as the case may be).

And what if she doesn't? Will they feel joy about that, too?

"Remember our sister, Susan?"
"Oh, yes- I'm so glad she went into the Shadows and is lost to us forever- say, why don't we go Further Up and Further In? I'm sure the apples there will be even better."

You do bring up an interesting point: Does Lewis expect anyone to feel sorry for the five younger of the Seven who die? I don't think so. It is just assumed that the Narnia-within-the-Narnia is infinitely better than the institutions that they haven't experienced yet, like marriage, a career, a family, etc. I think that we are meant to feel sorry for Susan who is not certain to join them.

Again, doesn't that mean we should hope that everybody (including ourselves) dies as young as possible- I know we're not supposed to kill ourselves, but wouldn't a train crash be like winning the lottery?


Here's a question- why did Lewis feel he had to kill the Pevensie children's parents as well? After all, as Peter himself says, they had nothing to do with Narnia.

P.S. - Love "Arsenic and Old Lace" - my mother played one of the old ladies in her Little Theater group when I was a kid.

[Earniel]

Hm, I was going to argue about some points about Susan's character, but then decided that I don't like these books enough to engage in a bigger discussion. So I leave this discussion with this: I do feel sorry for Susan, not because she is denied a place in Happy-Land, but because she was left behind to pick up the pieces. She will get to go and identify the corpses of pretty much her entire family. And if the train was going fast enough to kill about everyone in the train station... well, that's going to be rather messy. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. She will never see her brothers marry, she will never see her little sister graduate college, she's never going to have a nice family dinner again. And while accidents happen and one can come to terms with that, this was no accident, this was done to her. Her whole family was taken away from her, brutally, and on purpose. And only because she grew up when she was told to and had an interest in lipstick. And that is just cruel and unfair.

But... I actually also feel sorry for the Pevensies in this 'better' Narnia. Can't feel anything, anything at all but joy, always happyhappy? I was eerily reminded of someone's on drugs all the time, and that makes for creepy reading in what is advertised as books for children. Grief and sorrow are necessary emotions, they're no fun, but they are part of life and can help you grow. Tolkien at least (IMO) understood the necessity of sorrow by, for instance, placing Nienna among the Valar. But the Pevensies don't get a say in anything, they don't get a say in coming to Narnia right this minute, they even don't get a chance to say goodbye to anything or anyone. They end up stripped of not only their entire life and future in our world, but also of a facet of their human emotions and they're not even allowed to feel a bit bad about it.

It may be divine justice Lewis was going for, but I'm missing mercy. I suppose it is a fitting ending for the series, but it was not a happy one from where I'm standing.

[Midge]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

:blush: And one of my favorites, too.



I understand, I just disagree. But, according to your beliefs, why is it morbid to feel joy at somebody dying? Shouldn't you be happy? Even the loss shouldn't be the sadness of departure- after all you know you'll be seeing them again, in a better place. Really, the feeling should be one of envy- they get to go on holiday early, while you're stuck at work- yet somehow no religion seems to actually view it that way.

Okay, let me rephrase that. It's morbid to feel happiness at someone dying. They may be in a much better state now, especially if they died of chronic medical complications, but feeling happy about it like saying, "Oh, I'm SO glad they're gone!" You don't do that. You miss them. You cry. You are glad they're in heaven, but at the same time, you're sad that they are gone.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

And what if she doesn't? Will they feel joy about that, too?

"Remember our sister, Susan?"
"Oh, yes- I'm so glad she went into the Shadows and is lost to us forever- say, why don't we go Further Up and Further In? I'm sure the apples there will be even better."

This is where we get into such a lot of speculation. There's no knowing about all this because Lewis didn't write about it. What he did say at the very end was that it was the beginning of the most beautiful story in the world, with each chapter better than the one before it. As terrible as it may seem, I don't see them even saying, "Remember our sister, Susan?" I don't think they would have forgotten her, but their minds would so occupied with other joyful things that they wouldn't have time, room, or desire for any sorrowful thing.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Again, doesn't that mean we should hope that everybody (including ourselves) dies as young as possible- I know we're not supposed to kill ourselves, but wouldn't a train crash be like winning the lottery?

Well... everyone probably has times and situations where they think, "Death would be better than living through this." Every college kid during finals thinks that, I'm sure. However, we were set on earth to live for Christ. You make it sound like people should stay alive as long as they're unbelievers and then when they become a believer, should not have any reason to live. That's the opposite of how it is. Believing in Christ gives one the most fulfilling reason to live ever: to bring glory to God.

In the case of the Pevensies, Aslan had given them a charge: He had another name in our world, and the Pevensies were to discover that name and grow ever closer to Aslan thus (we hear him say this to Edmund and Lucy in VDT, and I'm sure that it is similar to what he told Peter and Susan in PC). Susan didn't live up to that. And the thing is that they wanted to grow close to Aslan. In VDT, Lucy says, "It isn't Narnia, you know. It's YOU." when talking about what they would miss the most from not coming back to Narnia. But it's the same thing for believers in our world. Once they are saved, they are charged with living a godly lifestyle (for the glory of God) for the rest of their life. I don't think that includes hoping for death, although it does entail a desire to be united with Christ and continually anticipate His return.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Here's a question- why did Lewis feel he had to kill the Pevensie children's parents as well? After all, as Peter himself says, they had nothing to do with Narnia.

P.S. - Love "Arsenic and Old Lace" - my mother played one of the old ladies in her Little Theater group when I was a kid.

IMHO, Lewis used the Calormene Emeth being "admitted" to the better Narnia to show that Aslan was not a local god. That is a policy that it is very possible to think based on the other books. Aslan is majorly Narnia's (and possibly Archenland's) deity. I think he used the Pevensie parents as another example to show that Aslan (or God) is not a local god, although this time it's a different type of local. With Emeth, it was country to country. With the Pevensies, it was universe to universe. Remember in TMN, Lewis says that Narnia is a place you can only get to by magic, that no matter how far you traveled in our universe you'd never get there? Aslan isn't only a god across countries, He's a god across universes! How amazing!

P.S. Yes, "Arsenic and Old Lace" is so funny! It makes me cringe watching it, but it's worth it every time.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Midge

Well... everyone probably has times and situations where they think, "Death would be better than living through this." Every college kid during finals thinks that, I'm sure. However, we were set on earth to live for Christ. You make it sound like people should stay alive as long as they're unbelievers and then when they become a believer, should not have any reason to live. That's the opposite of how it is. Believing in Christ gives one the most fulfilling reason to live ever: to bring glory to God.

In the case of the Pevensies, Aslan had given them a charge: He had another name in our world, and the Pevensies were to discover that name and grow ever closer to Aslan thus (we hear him say this to Edmund and Lucy in VDT, and I'm sure that it is similar to what he told Peter and Susan in PC). Susan didn't live up to that. And the thing is that they wanted to grow close to Aslan. In VDT, Lucy says, "It isn't Narnia, you know. It's YOU." when talking about what they would miss the most from not coming back to Narnia. But it's the same thing for believers in our world. Once they are saved, they are charged with living a godly lifestyle (for the glory of God) for the rest of their life. I don't think that includes hoping for death, although it does entail a desire to be united with Christ and continually anticipate His return.

Good point, Midge.
The apostle Paul says in one of his letters that he would have liked to go to stay with Christ, because that is so much better - but staying in this life is more useful for those churches and people he then can help.