How did Denethor know about Aragorn?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Yes, I agree with Gordis, Denethor deciphered the dream, but I think, he understood instantly what is "Isildur's bane" , for he did not strike me as a person who would be completely ignorant about the history of the founders of the city and country.
He is more than sure that on the meeting in Imladris will be discussed matters of topmost importance for the welfare of Gondor. Because only EXTREMELY IMPORTANT and CONFIDENTIAL mission could tear the Captain of the White Tower and commander of the army away from the warfare's theatre. If Denethor really needed to CONSULT and INTERPRETE a DREAM, he would send Faramir.

I believe Olmer may be correct. When talking with Frodo, Faramir revealed that he already believed that Isildur had taken “somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed...some heirloom of power...a fell weapon perchance, devised by the Dark Lord�. What items fit this description? I can only think of one. Also notice how Faramir said the “hand of the Unnamed�. Now this may mean nothing or it may mean that Faramir guessed this item to be the One Ring. If Denethor had also come to this conclusion, he may have made the connection to “Isildur’s Bane�, a connection Faramir later made himself.

As Olmer says, Gondor’s primary captain and heir to the Stewardship wouldn’t be sent on this errand unless it was extremely important that he go. Open war with Mordor was imminent.

Earniel may be right that Boromir simply took the errand upon himself. This is the straightforward explanation from the text, and so, may be the best one. But why would Boromir be so interested in a riddling dream, which, so far as he knows, says nothing about defeating Sauron in the war which is so close at hand, interested enough to travel hundreds of miles in search of the answer, while leaving his army without his leadership? I think is possible that Denethor may have influenced Boromir here with a few well chosen words, without Boromir realizing it. Denethor was much greater than Boromir mentally. I am not sure why Denethor couldn’t have simply told Boromir what he believed the dream meant though.

Originally Posted by Landroval

We must keep in mind that there can be no forceful transmission of thought - all the parties involved in the communication must be willing and opened for it to happen.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting (I know I’m not) that Gandalf forced the trip from Minas Tirith to Rivendell. He may have sent the dream/thought as influence (just as he influenced, not forced, Frodo on Amon Hen) to convince one of Denethor’s sons to go. Anyway, if he had forced the action, it would have been Faramir that went, not Boromir. If you are saying that communication itself can’t be forced, you may be right. I don’t think that the brothers would have been shielding their minds from Gandalf though. Frodo certainly wasn’t.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Of the Numenoreans, not even Isildur could have wield the ring; of all the beings in M.E., only Gandalf can be suspected of having such a power over the ring. The ring being brought to Gondor would have helped no one, it would have corrupted the city even worse.

This may be true. But the important question here is did Denethor agree with you.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Boromir is the only one in the fellowship who doesn't make it alive; his attitude and deed are most reprobable of them all. He was the weak link

This may be true again. However we have to look at things from Denethor’s point of view. If his plan was to have the Ring brought to Minas Tirith, then Boromir was the right man for the job and Faramir probably wasn’t.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Yes, distance could be an issue. There is certainly nothing in the passage from the Valaquenta to suggest that Gandalf could do this from a great distance, but, then again, there isn’t anything to suggest he couldn’t either. Also, remember how he “spoke� to Frodo while Frodo was on Amon Hen.

As for Amon Hen, I always thought it was "Ring-Ring" thought communication: Narya calling the One, that Frodo had been wearing at the moment.

Actually, when one has a prophetic dream, the prime suspect would be a certain Maia Olorin, specialist in dreams.

Gandalf left Minas-Tirith sometime in the end of February- beginning of March, as on March 23 he was already in Mirkwood (UT, Hunt for the Ring). Could he "leave" a dream to be shown later, like a slow virus?

Frodo saw in a dream, how Galdalf escaped from Orthanc - that might prove that dreams could be sent at a distance.

Here another dream Faramir had comes to my mind: a recurring dream of the Great Wave sweeping over Numenor.

‘Yes,’ said Faramir, ‘of the land of Westernesse that foundered and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.’

. This one, I think was one of Gandalf's brainwashing dreams.

Evidently, Gandalf had chosen Faramir as a pupil long ago - perhaps he had a "feeling" that one day Faramir would have to make a Choice about the Ring. So he prepared the boy, ensuring that he becomes what was called "Faithful", and knew that disobedience to the Powers was perilous. I believe, Faramir was prepared much in the same way as Aragorn was. Gandalf evidently didn't tell him about the One, but it seems he must have told Faramir some nazgul stories, to make him wary of the Rings in general. Remember, Faramir had the "classified" info (missing even from the Chronicles and records of Gondor and Rivendell), that three of the Nine were Numenorean Lords. Gandalf must have told Faramir about them, making sure that Faramir wouldn't be tempted by a Ring - and he was right, only instead of the prepared Faramir, it was the totally unprepared Boromir who came to Rivendell. Poor innocent guy who never heard about Rings, about the nazgul, and couldn't even recognise the Morgul Lord when he saw him!

Originally Posted by CAB

The reason I thought about this possibility is that it would appear that the dream was sent by somebody. Who else would have the motivation and ability to do this? I suppose that one of the Valar or even Eru could have done it, but I am not sure why they would.

I am not so sure that the Valar/Eru were as uninvolved in the Quest as they wanted to appear. Some Force made the Ring fall into the hands of a resistant hobbit (twice!). Then this Western Wind dispelling the Darkness of Mordor and driving Aragorn's fleet upriver... I doubt Gandalf had enough power to meddle with the weather in such a way. So, there is a possibility that the Dream was sent by the Higher-Ups. If Faramir came with the Fellowship, the Quest might have gone smoothly, Frodo, Gollum and the hobbits turning to Mordor, and Faramir coming to Minas Tirith with Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli. In the Divine Plan, Boromir, probably, was singled for early death anyway, as well as Denethor.

Originally Posted by Landroval

We must keep in mind that there can be no forceful transmission of thought - all the parties involved in the communication must be willing and opened for it to happen. What I would say is that Gandalf's presence 'elevated' the elves (due to its divine nature), it somehow compensated for the marring affecting their spirits, allowing their superior nature to manifest itself.

I am not sure where you see "forceful" transmission of thought? Sleeping Faramir was as open for dreams as the Elves mentioned in the Valaquenta were. And in what way is elven nature "superior" to human?

Originally Posted by Landroval

He fell to the power of the ring, worse than anyone else in the fellowship ... Boromir is the only one in the fellowship who doesn't make it alive; his attitude and deed are most reprobable of them all. He was the weak link

. Because he needed the Ring's Power as desperately as Aragorn or Gandalf did, perhaps even more, but, unlike them, he was TOTALLY unprepared for this trial. Neither did he have hobbit resistance to Evil. Nobody bothered to explain to him WHY couldn't he wield the One against Sauron. The Wise at the Counsil were haughty and dismissed his suggestion from the start. Galadriel felt Boromir was on the threshold of breaking, but she didn't deign to talk to him, instead she tempted him, made him realise clearly what it was he wanted. (Ugh, the accursed White Witch! )

Originally Posted by Earniel

He may have guessed what the poem was about, the return of an heir to the Gondorean throne. But I doubt he could have known that that same heir was also present there and that the Ring was also the topic.

I think he understood "Isildur's Bane" all right. It was not THAT difficult.

Gandalf : "Still the Lord of Gondor learned more from you than you may have guessed, Pippin. You could not hide the fact that Boromir did not lead the Company from Moria, and that there was one among you of high honour who was coming to Minas Tirith; and that he had a famous sword. Men think much about the stories of old days in Gondor; and Denethor has given long thought to the rhyme and to the words Isildur’s Bane, since Boromir went away.

Originally Posted by CAB

I am not sure why Denethor couldn’t have simply told Boromir what he believed the dream meant though.

That was his mistake. Or, perhaps, he understood what Isildur's Bane really was only after Boromir left (see the quote above) Or, he was afraid that the simple knowledge about the Ring could affect his son, making him desire the Ring for himself, to WIELD it, while Denethor expected him to simply bring the thing to his father. By the way, I trust Denethor when he said to Gandalf that his idea was to HIDE the Ring deep in the dungeons of M. Tirith, not to wield it:

The face of Denethor set hard and cold. ‘You found Boromir less apt to your hand, did you not?’ he said softly. ‘But I who was his father say that he would have brought it to me. You are wise, maybe, Mithrandir, yet with all your subtleties you have not all wisdom. Counsels may be found that are neither the webs of wizards nor the haste of fools. I have in this matter more lore and wisdom than you deem. ‘
‘What then is your wisdom?’ said Gandalf.
‘Enough to perceive that there are two follies to avoid. To use this thing is perilous. At this hour, to send it in the hands of a witless halfling into the land of the Enemy himself, as you have done, and this son of mine, that is madness.’
‘And the Lord Denethor what would he have done?’
‘Neither. But most surely not for any argument would he have set this thing at a hazard beyond all but a fool’s hope, risking our utter ruin, if the Enemy should recover what he lost. Nay, it should have been kept, hidden, hidden dark and deep. Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need, but set beyond his grasp, save by a victory so final that what then befell would not trouble us, being dead.’
‘You think, as is your wont, my lord, of Gondor only,’ said Gandalf. ‘Yet there are other men and other lives, and time still to be. And for me, I pity even his slaves.’
‘And where will other men look for help, if Gondor falls?’ answered Denethor. ‘If I had this thing now in the deep vaults of this citadel, we should not then shake with dread under this gloom, fearing the worst, and our counsels would be undisturbed. If you do not trust me to endure the test, you do not know me yet.’

Originally Posted by Earniel

But I also think that regardless of that, the choice about which son went wasn't his. Boromir had set his sights on this mission and would not be pursuaded. And Denethor did let him go because he loved Boromir much and didn't want to put anything in his way.

Denethor was the Lord of Gondor. It was HIS final decision, whatever Boromir might have wished. Here I agree with CAB. Also look at this quote:

For a moment Faramir’s restraint gave way. ‘I would ask you, my father, to remember why it was that I, not he, was in Ithilien. On one occasion at least your counsel has prevailed, not long ago. It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him.’

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think he understood "Isildur's Bane" all right. It was not THAT difficult.

To us who know the complete story after all story-strands have run their course, no. But if I'm not mistaken it was not common knowledge back then that Isildur had taken the Ring from Sauron and that the Ring specifically had been Isildur's down fall. Isildur's Bane could eventually be lots of things.

Denethor was the Lord of Gondor. It was HIS final decision, whatever Boromir might have wished. Here I agree with CAB. Also look at this quote:

Indeed, but that doesn't mean he could not have granted Boromir his wish to go instead of Faramir merely out of love. There don't have to be ulterior motives.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for Amon Hen, I always thought it was "Ring-Ring" thought communication: Narya calling the One, that Frodo had been wearing at the moment.

Good point. I hadn’t considered that possibility. I still think it is possible that Gandalf could project his thoughts unaided over a distance though. Aside from Frodo’s dream that you mentioned, there is also the urgent message that Frodo and Sam seemed to receive on the slopes of Orodruin. It really wasn’t important to the mission of destroying the Ring that they get up and go to the Cracks of Doom immediately, but it was important if Gandalf and Co.’s lives were to be saved. This means it is likely that he, rather than Eru or a Vala (who probably weren’t terribly concerned about the small details) sent this message.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Gandalf left Minas-Tirith sometime in the end of February- beginning of March, as on March 23 he was already in Mirkwood (UT, Hunt for the Ring). Could he "leave" a dream to be shown later, like a slow virus?

Could be. I think it is more likely he sent it over a distance though.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Evidently, Gandalf had chosen Faramir as a pupil long ago - perhaps he had a "feeling" that one day Faramir would have to make a Choice about the Ring. So he prepared the boy, ensuring that he becomes what was called "Faithful", and knew that disobedience to the Powers was perilous. I believe, Faramir was prepared much in the same way as Aragorn was. Gandalf evidently didn't tell him about the One, but it seems he must have told Faramir some nazgul stories, to make him wary of the Rings in general. Remember, Faramir had the "classified" info (missing even from the Chronicles and records of Gondor and Rivendell), that three of the Nine were Numenorean Lords. Gandalf must have told Faramir about them, making sure that Faramir wouldn't be tempted by a Ring - and he was right, only instead of the prepared Faramir, it was the totally unprepared Boromir who came to Rivendell. Poor innocent guy who never heard about Rings, about the nazgul, and couldn't even recognise the Morgul Lord when he saw him!

Because he needed the Ring's Power as desperately as Aragorn or Gandalf did, perhaps even more, but, unlike them, he was TOTALLY unprepared for this trial. Neither did he have hobbit resistance to Evil. Nobody bothered to explain to him WHY couldn't he wield the One against Sauron. The Wise at the Counsil were haughty and dismissed his suggestion from the start. Galadriel felt Boromir was on the threshold of breaking, but she didn't deign to talk to him, instead she tempted him, made him realise clearly what it was he wanted. (Ugh, the accursed White Witch! )

You are changing the way I see things Gordis. I had always thought that it was entirely the differences in character and mental strength that separated Boromir and Faramir (and Aragorn). But I think you are right. Preparation and education had to play a major role. If one of these “great� people had taken the time to explain things to Boromir, he might have acted differently.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

To us who know the complete story after all story-strands have run their course, no. But if I'm not mistaken it was not common knowledge back then that Isildur had taken the Ring from Sauron and that the Ring specifically had been Isildur's down fall. Isildur's Bane could eventually be lots of things.

It wasn’t common knowledge, but Denethor wasn’t a common man either. He was very well learned concerning Gondor’s history. Remember that Gandalf consulted him about events that took place during the War of the Last Alliance. It is even possible that Denethor knew exactly what Gandalf was asking about but decided to withhold the information. I don’t think we can assume that he knew what Isildur’s Bane was, but I do think we have to consider it a strong possibility.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Indeed, but that doesn't mean he could not have granted Boromir his wish to go instead of Faramir merely out of love. There don't have to be ulterior motives.

This could be, but considering Boromir’s position and the nearness of the upcoming war, and also Denethor’s personality, I think it is unlikely. Denethor’s love for Boromir could be a factor in another way. In Denethor’s mind it may have been necessary to bring the Ring to Minas Tirith and discourage Thorongil if Boromir was ever going to have a chance to rule Gondor.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I still think it is possible that Gandalf could project his thoughts unaided over a distance though. Aside from Frodo’s dream that you mentioned, there is also the urgent message that Frodo and Sam seemed to receive on the slopes of Orodruin. It really wasn’t important to the mission of destroying the Ring that they get up and go to the Cracks of Doom immediately, but it was important if Gandalf and Co.’s lives were to be saved. This means it is likely that he, rather than Eru or a Vala (who probably weren’t terribly concerned about the small details) sent this message.

An EXCELLENT point, CAB. Moreover, this time it was not Ring-Ring thingy, as the message came to Sam, not to Frodo:

Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand came to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: ‘Now, now, or it will be too late!’

Yes, it must have been Gandalf all right, so now we know he could project thoughts at a distance.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

An EXCELLENT point, CAB. Moreover, this time it was not Ring-Ring thingy, as the message came to Sam, not to Frodo

Thanks Gordis. I hate to quibble over the details, but they both received the message.

Frodo also seemed to have felt the call. He struggled to his knees.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Thanks Gordis. I hate to quibble over the details, but they both received the message.

Indeed.
But it couldn't be via the Ring - otherwise the message would have come only to Frodo.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Did, then, Sauron reveal this to Denethor only after Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron?

Yep. That's my bet.

[Alcuin]

We are all forgetting that Pippin told Beregond that Aragorn was the only one of the Company who really knew Gandalf. When Beregond asked for more information, Pippin played it as, “He was a man who went about with us.” The next day, Denethor teased Pippin about the short rations in the City, and Pippin realized Beregond had reported everything he had said in their conversation. And after Denethor questioned Pippin at their first meeting, Gandalf pointed out that Pippin was unable to hide that someone with a famous sword was coming, and that Boromir was not the leader of the Company after Moria.

Denethor and Aragorn had known one another as young men when Aragorn served his father, Ecthelion II, under the name Thorongil. Appendix A suggests that Denethor had been able even then to determine who Aragorn was, and that he was jealous. (After all, Denethor could never be king himself, “just” steward.)

Denethor knew who was in Rohan by name and title by the time Pippin showed up to serve the next morning, when he teased him about the rations.

Sauron’s must be careful to hide from Denethor what he knows about Aragorn. For one thing, Sauron did not know his name. (Aragorn did not “speak” to him: he threatened him with Narsil-Andúril and then wrenched the palantÃ*r to his own use.) For another two, the Sword-that-was-Broken was in the dream-rhyme, and Sauron would want to conceal anything that might give Denethor hope; and the coming of the Heir of Isildur would have given Denethor hope were he not consumed with jealousy. I think Sauron showed him the fleet and the armies marshaled against Gondor, and Denethor feared that Sauron had read from his mind what he knew about Frodo’s quest and used it to regain the One Ring.

Since Sauron believed either Aragorn or Gandalf had the Ring, he knew that Denethor did not. So he must have been bluffing Denethor in order to weaken his will to fight before Aragorn could arrive.

Think about it: After their confrontation, Sauron knew Aragorn was in the Hornburg. He had to strike before the Heir of Isildur could reach Minas Tirith. All the more because he believed Aragorn had the Ruling Ring.

[CAB]

I agree and disagree with you here, Alcuin.

Of course you are right that Denethor was already aware of Aragorn (aka: Thorongil, the leader of Pippin and Boromir's company after Moria, Heir of Isildur). What was interesting about The Gaffer's suggestion wasn't the thought that Denethor may learned about Aragorn from Sauron. Rather, it was the idea that Sauron (who was almost surely unaware of Denethor's knowledge concerning Aragorn) may have intended to use this information to further weaken Denethor, and through him, Gondor.

"... let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts."

As I argued earlier in this thread, the one thing Sauron probably understood best about Denethor was his desire to retain his power. Aragorn's imminent return would not have given Denethor hope, it would have done just the opposite. And, to a degree, Sauron was correct in his thinking regarding Denethor.

"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Since Sauron believed either Aragorn or Gandalf had the Ring, he knew that Denethor did not. So he must have been bluffing Denethor in order to weaken his will to fight before Aragorn could arrive.

I don't think bluffing was necessary in this case. According to Sauron's way of thinking, Denethor, once made aware of Aragorn, should have lost his willingness to fight. He was in, as The Gaffer said earlier, a lose-lose situation.