What language was spoken in Utumno and Angband?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Thirdly, and finally, as I have been learning Quenya as a speakable language, comparing the way that the "ring rhyme" (if you will forgive the pun) is spelled and pronounced, it appears very very similar to Third Age Quenya. Thus I would conclude that the "black speech" as it is called by Elrond in Rivendell when Gandalf speaks it, is actually a version of First Age Quenya modified slightly by Morgoth to fit as a more commanding, and twisted language.

What similarities do you actually see between Quienia and the BS? Could you, please, be more specific?
And Welcome to the Moot, Valarauko!

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Thirdly, and finally, as I have been learning Quenya as a speakable language, comparing the way that the "ring rhyme" (if you will forgive the pun) is spelled and pronounced, it appears very very similar to Third Age Quenya. Thus I would conclude that the "black speech" as it is called by Elrond in Rivendell when Gandalf speaks it, is actually a version of First Age Quenya modified slightly by Morgoth to fit as a more commanding, and twisted language.

Very interesting, Valarauko!
I would think that First Age Quenya would need a LOT of modification to become something looking like the language on the One Ring, though.

[Valarauko5]

The similarities are mainly in the vowels. So far as I can tell, in the first movie Gandalf pronounces everything perfectly in Elven, right down to the word "Mellon" (pronounced Mel-Lawn or something quite close to that), and when speaks (as Elrond says "in the black speech") the ring rhyme in Rivendell the vowels sound just like they do in Quenya. Right down to the u's being pronounced like they are in the English "put" rather than "brute" as a short "u" should be. Now, granted, the rhyme uses a slightly different spelling, especially for the "k" sound, but early Quenya used a "k" for that sound. Only in the third age was it spelled "c" but even at that a "c" is always pronounced like a "k" in Quenya. In addition, I will admit that the stress on the syllables is slightly off, but that could easily be Morgoth's version of Quenya, modified to sound more overpowering and intimidating.
For example, "Ash nazg, durbatuluk" or "One Ring to rule them all"
"Ash" in third age quenya would be spelled "ahy" because the "hy" is pronounced like the German "ch" as in "ich" which some Human speakers would pronounce "sh". This is thus an easy way to see how Morgoth could corrupt the language. In addition, if you look at the word "nazg" and compare to the Elven "Nazgul" They are pronounced EXACTLY alike in the movie by Aragorn and Gandalf. These two are actually the best at pronouncing Elven according to several sources so we can generally assume that they know what they're saying.
Also, if you look at:
http://khallandra.tripod.com/sindarin/classes.htm
in the alphabet of Tengwar, it would appear that the script used is quite strangely, the exact same alphabet as all Elven language. Granted, I am not a master of Sindarin or Quenya, But from the studies I have done on it, it would seem that Morgoth pulled a fast one on the Elves with this. To be honest, I would do the same thing. Why wast your time making your own language when you can corrupt the beautiful and elegant language of your hated foe into something for them to be scared of?
Does this make sense to you guys? I can come up with a couple of other examples if you'd like. These were just the easiest to explain.

[Gordis]

Hmm... sounds very interesting. Yet I have some doubts.

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

The similarities are mainly in the vowels. So far as I can tell, in the first movie Gandalf pronounces everything perfectly in Elven, right down to the word "Mellon" (pronounced Mel-Lawn or something quite close to that), and when speaks (as Elrond says "in the black speech") the ring rhyme in Rivendell the vowels sound just like they do in Quenya. Right down to the u's being pronounced like they are in the English "put" rather than "brute" as a short "u" should be.

But look, there is a lot of real world languages that pronounce "u" mostly if not always like in "put", not like in "brute" or in "must". The fact that both Quenia and the BS pronounce 'u" unlike it is in English, doesn't really make them related.

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

For example, "Ash nazg, durbatuluk" or "One Ring to rule them all"
"Ash" in third age quenya would be spelled "ahy" because the "hy" is pronounced like the German "ch" as in "ich" which some Human speakers would pronounce "sh". This is thus an easy way to see how Morgoth could corrupt the language.

This is interesting and new for me.

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

In addition, if you look at the word "nazg" and compare to the Elven "Nazgul" They are pronounced EXACTLY alike in the movie by Aragorn and Gandalf.

Sorry, "Nazgûl" is NOT Elvish. It is a word of the Black Tongue translated "Ringwraith" or "Ulairi" in Elvish

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Also, if you look at:
http://khallandra.tripod.com/sindarin/classes.htm
in the alphabet of Tengwar, it would appear that the script used is quite strangely, the exact same alphabet as all Elven language.

You mean the script on the One Ring? It IS Elvish indeed.

I cannot read the fiery letters,’ said Frodo in a quavering voice.
‘No,’ said Gandalf, ‘but I can. The letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor- "The Shadow of the Past"

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Granted, I am not a master of Sindarin or Quenya, But from the studies I have done on it, it would seem that Morgoth pulled a fast one on the Elves with this. To be honest, I would do the same thing. Why wast your time making your own language when you can corrupt the beautiful and elegant language of your hated foe into something for them to be scared of?
Does this make sense to you guys? I can come up with a couple of other examples if you'd like. These were just the easiest to explain.

Perhaps Melkor and Sauron loved to invent new languages as much as Tolkien himself did?
You see, I am not a language expert - not even close - so I may be totally wrong. However, I heard Quenia was based on Finnish. The BS, some experts say, is very close to ancient Hittite. As Finnish is hardly related to Hittite ...well you understand.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

"Ash" in third age quenya would be spelled "ahy" because the "hy" is pronounced like the German "ch" as in "ich" which some Human speakers would pronounce "sh".

I know next to nothing about Quenya, but I know enough German to known that the German 'ch' as in 'ich' is never pronounced 'sh'.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Sorry, "Nazgûl" is NOT Elvish. It is a word of the Black Tongue translated "Ringwraith"...

And regarding the word nazg '(finger-) ring', Tolkien writes (in part): 'This was devised to be a vocable as distinct in style and phonetic content from words of the same meaning in Elvish, or in other real languages that are most familiar: English, Latin, Greek, etc...' (letter 297).

One Quenya word for 'ring' is corma, but in Vinyar Tengwar 17 Carl Hostetter suggests that BS nazg was a possibe developement of Quenya natse 'web, net' from a root NAT- (itself related to root NUT- 'tie bind'). I won't set out the argument here, but I will note that Mr. Hostetter does not see a necessary contradiction between his suggestion and Tolkien's comments in the letter to Mr. Rang (letter 297).

To try and keep things distinct, this is the Black Speech developed by Sauron in the Second Age, while the thread (initially anyway) concerns an earlier time.

You mean the script on the One Ring? It IS Elvish indeed.

Yes, and just to add, the Tengwar has been used to write a variety of languages, including Modern English. Frodo cannot read the Black Speech of course, though the letter forms (in general) were used for representing the Common Speech as well.

Perhaps Melkor and Sauron loved to invent new languages as much as Tolkien himself did?

In Enquiry into the Communication of Thought (Vinyar Tengwar 39) Manwe is reported to have said about Melkor:

'(...) From the first he was greatly interested in 'language', that talent that the Eruhini would have by nature; but we did not at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it, and Aule above all. But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you should speak with him beware!'

'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amaze, for his use could not be bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters.'

At the moment I can't recall another text about this language invented by Melkor for his servants. In my opinion this need not contradict what is stated in Appendix F however, that the Orcs had no language of their own '... but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their liking; yet they made only brutal jargons, scarcely sufficient even for their own needs,...'

In the Narn we find the word Golug, an Orc-name for the Noldor, which could be a corruption of Sindarin Golodh (or so some have suggested at least). I think it's interesting that according to the text Quendi And Eldar the Sindarin form Golodh itself 'seems to have been phonetically unpleasing to the Noldor', so that the Noldor using Sindarin did not use this term, and it fell out of use among those friendly to them.

The essay Quendi And Eldar is from The War of the Jewels.

[Gordis]

Hi, Galin! Great to have an expert on languages here.

I have a question for you, as we were already discussung the word "nazgûl"

Here is what I've posted on another forum:

Originally Posted by Gordis

About "Khamûl". Nobody knows what language is that. A good guess would be the Black Tongue.

If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery:
"nazgûl"= "ringwraith"
"nazg"="ring"
"ûl"="wraith"

My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow".
And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth. The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "Khamul" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land".

In reply I got this comment, but without the exact reference:

"Gûl" means wraith in Black Speech. Tolkien just dropped the second "g." I think at one time the name word might have been spelled "Nazghûl."

Now, what is your opinion, Galin, is that correct that"wraith" in the Black Tongue would be "gûl" not "ûl"?

And anyway there seems to be a similarity with Sindarin - "Gûl" with "Sorcery" (Morgûl, Gûldur) and "ûl" with "Ulairi"...

Perhaps you could explain this?

Originally Posted by Galin

And regarding the word nazg '(finger-) ring', Tolkien writes (in part): 'This was devised to be a vocable as distinct in style and phonetic content from words of the same meaning in Elvish, or in other real languages that are most familiar: English, Latin, Greek, etc...' (letter 297).

I remember that someone later pointed out that "nazg" seemed similar to Gaelic word "nasc" (ring) and Tolkien admitted that he could have unconsciously borrowed it from Gaelic language that he used to learn but didn't like at all.

[Galin]

I'm not an expert but JRRT has revealed that the BS word is gûl 'wraith'.

Tolkien seems to variously write (PE17) that the BS word is derived from Sindarin (where the Quenya form is ñúle). In another entry he writes that the word probably derives from Elvish ñgól- (Q. ñóle appears here). And in a third entry he writes again that the BS word probably derives from Sindarin gûl 'black arts, sorcery' (Q. ñúle again).

Derived from Elvish in any case, and leaning towards Grey-elven it seems.

[Valarauko5]

Thank you both for pointing out the problem with Nazgul. I might ammend the statement to be in accordance with a better example of it that Galin posted. The words Ulairi and Nazgul could easily be closely related. Remember that Sindarin was simply the language of the Elves that did not travel to Valinor. Quenya was the language of the Lords of the Noldor. Also, to be fair, no the German "ich" is never pronounced "ish" in German. But English speakers, and in the case of LotR the Men of Westernesse, have a tendency to pronounce this "ish" such as "church". I'm just putting out there that this would be easy to corrupt this way as Morgoth/Sauron had many servants that were men of middle-earth. And simply for the sake of argument, are we sure yet whether the black speech was made by Morgoth or Sauron? there are references for both.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Galin

I'm not an expert but JRRT has revealed that the BS word is gûl 'wraith'.

Tolkien seems to variously write (PE17) that the BS word is derived from Sindarin (where the Quenya form is ñúle). In another entry he writes that the word probably derives from Elvish ñgól- (Q. ñóle appears here). And in a third entry he writes again that the BS word probably derives from Sindarin gûl 'black arts, sorcery' (Q. ñúle again).

Derived from Elvish in any case, and leaning towards Grey-elven it seems.

Thank you so much, Galin. It is so nice to be able to ask someone who actually reads PE.

What about "Ulairi"? Does the "ûl" part come from "gûl" - 'black arts, sorcery' and what does the "airi" part mean in your opinion?

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

And simply for the sake of argument, are we sure yet whether the black speech was made by Morgoth or Sauron? there are references for both.

I think the initial BS was Morgoth's, and perished with Angband. Later, in mid Second Age, Sauron continued to develop the language, introducing new words (Nazgul etc.). Then, after the defeat by the Last Alliance, the BS was all but forgotten by everyone but the nazgul, while the orcs continued to debase what little they remembered, until it became hardly recognizable in various orc dialects. But you better ask Galin.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

What about "Ulairi"? Does the "ûl" part come from "gûl" - 'black arts, sorcery' and what does the "airi" part mean in your opinion?

If one were to simply 'Quenyarize' a word that began with gûl then initial g- might be dropped, as initial g would not normally occur in Quenya. But that's conjecture of course, with respect to this word -- which has been the subject of debate even among the experts. I'll quote Arden Smith (a member of the Editorial Team currently publishing Tolkien's linguistic papers) here for example, but even he offers nothing definitive.

Stanley Friesen wrote: 'It's simple really, it's 'lair' = "alive", and ulairi means "the unliving ones", or as we would more naturall say in English, The Undead. the word is seen in 'Laire' = "Summer", and is possibly related to 'laik-' = "green".

Arden Smith responded: 'This might be a good theory if you could prove the existence of a word lair 'alive', but I don't think you can. The closest you'll get, I think, is laisi 'youth, vigour, new life' in the Qenya Lexicon, but the word laire from the same period has the meaning 'meadow' (LT1: 267). Furthermore, the "unliving" aren't necessarily the same thing as the "undead"!

I think that the first element could be related either to ÚLUG ['hideous, horrible'] in Etym. (LR: 396), or to a Q negative prefix: UL- of the Qenya Lexicon (LT1: 260) or ú (< UGU) of Etym (LR: 260). Likely candidates for the second element are DAY- 'shadow' (whence Q laira 'shady', etc.; LR: 354) and GÁYAS- 'fear' (whence Q aista 'to dread', N gaer 'dreadful', etc.; LR: 358).

A lot depends on whether the word is to be analyzed as ú+lair+i or úl+air+i. The first option would give a meaning of 'beings of negative [i.e. evil] shadow' or something similar ('beings of no shadow' would not fit with what we know about the Ringwraiths), whereas the second would give something like 'beings of horrible dread'. A hybrid úl+lair+i might also be possible, giving 'beings of horrible shadow'.

Each of these suggestions has its weaknesses, so I don't propose any one of them as a definitive etymology. I just thought I'd throw them into the mix for everyone's consideration.' Arden Smith 1995

As far as the term 'Black Speech' goes, I specifically think of Sauron's invention in the Second Age.

[Gordis]

Thank you again, Galin.
Reading posts like that of Stanley Friesen makes me wish to bow in wonder and awe.