She Alone Stands Between Thee and Thy Doom

[Valandil]

Here's a thought I'd like to discuss:

It was only some time after first reading The Silmarillion that I really started figuring out how the pieces fit together. For one - I came to the sad realization that the line of Hurin ends with his children, particularly his son Turin - while the lines of other principal heroic figures continue.

Specifically, those of Beren and Tuor (Turin's younger cousin). Now - what do these two have in common? They both married Elves - and Elven princesses. In fact, the daughters of the Kings of two great Elven kingdoms - Doriath and Gondolin. Their descendants (Beren's grand-daughter and Tuor's son) marry - and become the parents of Elrond and Elros. Elrond becomes great among the Elven Lords, and Elros lives for 500 years and spends most of that time as the first king and founder of Numenor.

Did Turin have his chance?

At the defeat of Nargothrond's army by Glaurung and the Orcs, Turin rushes to the aid of Gwindor, who was mortally wounded, and carries him from the battle. Gwindor's final words to him are about Finduilas, daughter of Orodreth, who was then King of Nargothrond.

... Now if thou love me, leave me! Haste thee to Nargothrond and save Finduilas. And this last I say to thee: she alone stands between thee and thy doom. If thou fail her, it shall not fail to find thee. Farewell!"

But - when Turin arrives at Nargothrond, of course, Glaurung and the Orcs had come first and are already arranging their captives, including Finduilas. Then we have the confrontation between Turin and Glaurung, with Turin transfixed by Glaurung's gaze - and the words of Glaurung to Turin. Most of all, Glaurung taunts Turin about the fates of his mother and sister (who are by then actually safe at Doriath).

When released, Turin has a choice. He can give chase to the Orcs and try to find a way to rescue Finduilas, who has just been captured. Or - he can go find out what has happened to the mother he has not seen in over twenty years (23 by Unfinished Tales), and the sister he has never met.

What does he do? Prompted by Glaurung, he goes to Dor-lomin in search of his mother and sister.

But Turin passed away on the northward road and Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his Master.

And - when this all works itself out, Turin doesn't find them in Dor-lomin, since they are no longer there - and Finduilas is slain by the Orcs when they're set upon by the men of Brethil. Turin only comes in time to mourn over her burial mound.

So - my thought/question...

If Turin had made the other choice, and if he had somehow rescued Finduilas (hopeless as it seems), would that have somehow broken the doom of Morgoth's ill will? Even more, would it (assuming marriage and children - she clearly loves him) have established his line, and given his descendants a place among the great Elves and/or Men of the generations to come?

[Earniel]

There's no telling whether Túrin would live happily ever after with Finduilas. While she loved him, he did not necessarily love her back (in fact I seem to remember he didn't). But it might have prevented him from ending up with his own sister. And god knows Finduilas might have talked some sense into that guy! Túrin could definitely have used a little of that.

It'd be interesting to know just what Gwindor foresaw of Túrin's doom. Unfortunately we're left to guess.

It's interesting you make the connection with Beren and Túor. Three is a bit of a special number and comes up on several occasions through Tolkien's writing (three races of Édain, three races of Hobbits, three Elven races in Aman, three Elven rings, etc...). Perhaps the three Man-Elf marriages in the same generation was meant to be if Arda hadn't been marred?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Valandil

So - my thought/question...

If Turin had made the other choice, and if he had somehow rescued Finduilas (hopeless as it seems), would that have somehow broken the doom of Morgoth's ill will? Even more, would it (assuming marriage and children - she clearly loves him) have established his line, and given his descendants a place among the great Elves and/or Men of the generations to come?

That's basically how I've always read it. It's hard to blame Turin for his choice, but it seems as if it was the wrong one at the time.

[Rían]

Very interesting thoughts! I think Turin made a lot of wrong choices, but that one was hard to blame him for, except in the one point that he had been given a death-bed (death-ground?) warning and he chose to not heed it.

Interesting thought about the number 3, Earniel!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

:
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Interesting thought about the number 3, Earniel!

Except that it's hard for three to "tango"

For familial descent, multiples of two - or even powers of two - seem to work the best.

Oh - and actually Earniel, Beren and Luthien were a generation before Turin and Tuor. He was more a contemporary of Hurin and Huor. (so - that's one way to work in the odd numbers, if they should come along...)

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Oh - and actually Earniel, Beren and Luthien were a generation before Turin and Tuor. He was more a contemporary of Hurin and Huor. (so - that's one way to work in the odd numbers, if they should come along...)

I know. Perhaps 'timeframe' was a better suited word than 'generation'.

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I think Finduilas may have had some sway over Turin if he had rescued her, but as what was already mentioned, though she loved him, he did not love her. There is no way to say what would have happened. The story of Turin is my least favorite.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It's interesting you make the connection with Beren and Túor. Three is a bit of a special number and comes up on several occasions through Tolkien's writing (three races of Édain, three races of Hobbits, three Elven races in Aman, three Elven rings, etc...). Perhaps the three Man-Elf marriages in the same generation was meant to be if Arda hadn't been marred?

Three, indeed. There were three main realms of the Eldar: Gondolin, Doriath and Nargothrond. The first two lived on (in a way) in the descendants of Turgon and Thingol - Elrond and Elros and their children. The third realm-Nargothrond - perished without an issue, all because of Turin's choices (or his inability to love?). Finrod and Orodreth's son Gil-Galad also died childless, so nothing remained of the line of Nargothrond rulers.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I wouldn't discount the chance Turin could eventually fall for Finduilas, or at least come to an understanding together. But he chose otherwise.