Why Aragorn?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Aragorn went abroad with Elronds son before that. In Appendix A it says

It doesn't say how often this happened but it suggest he left Rivendell a few years previously.

This was actually before he 'went into the wild'... I take it he had gone out on possibly numerous short-term expeditions. But that's different from when he truly went out into the Wild, which was after Elrond told him who he really was, which was after his return with the sons of Elrond.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

If they knew very well the state and members of royal house, how come that Aragorn did not have any ideas who he is till his 20 ? He did not live in the void , as it said “In that house were harbored the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age.� Which means , considering their long living and the probability that some of Chieftains had not only one offspring, that over 1000 years the Rivendell was quite full with all kind of members of Arnor's royal house, which makes unlikely not to guess who is who, UNLESS over many years all of them were treated equally as descendants of the royal family.
In this way, even knowing that your father was the last king on the line, you could never be sure that somebody from your distant relatives doesn’t have more right to succeed as the next Chieftan, a.k.a. the heir of Isildur.

Agree on it. The son of you grandfather’s brother could carry no less amount of royal blood.

As I noted earlier, not every descendant is in direct line to be king/chieftain. And it does not say that Isildur's descendants were fostered in Rivendell, it says that his heirs were. That would be a succession of young men, one at a time... not many descendants all at once.

Notice, that Argeleb, while claiming the lordship of Arnor, was ASSUMING that no descendants left in other realms. Rhydaur refused his lordship not because of the absence of the rightful heir to the throne. It said that “because Dunedain were few� the “power had been seized by evil lord of the Hillmen �. You can’t SEIZE the kingship if it’s no king there , can‘t forcibly take the throne which nobody occupied. So the rightful king of Rhydaur and his family was among that “few� in the time of seizure, and possibly after that some of his family , escaping an oppression,� fled west�.
The probability is very “thin�, but still gives us a venue for speculation.

The portion in Appendix A also says: "In Arthedain the line of Isildur was maintained and endured, but the line soon perished in Cardolan and Rhudaur." And a little further, "In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor." So it sounds to me more like every possible direct descendant of Isildur (or at least of Earendur - last King of all Arnor, whose sons divided the kingdom into three) in Cardolan and Rhudaur had died out. I don't think there were any of them left.

EDIT: on that part about an evil lord of the hillmen seizing power, speculating alone I almost wonder if there was something similar to what Ar-Pharazon had done to seize the throne of Numenor: perhaps this evil lord seized the hand in marriage of Rhudaur's last surviving descendant of that branch of the royal line (obviously a female, for this to work) - in order to legitimize his claim. (I'm thinking of writing a little fanfic story about it! )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

This was actually before he 'went into the wild'... I take it he had gone out on possibly numerous short-term expeditions. But that's different from when he truly went out into the Wild, which was after Elrond told him who he really was, which was after his return with the sons of Elrond.

Would he have gone abroad alone before this though, because the Sons of Elrond wouldn't have gone everywhere with him.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

… he was surely he would have called Aragorn father at some point not Aragorn.

Not necessarily.If he,as the heir by blood, brought up the way Aragorn was, he might have very vague idea.
Besides in some families kids are calling parents by name.

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Tolkien would never have left taht out and not told us.

Tolkien have left A LOT OF out. Probably, he just did not have enough of time to elaborate the details of all plots.

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Aragorn is a bad man because a good and just man would make his rightful son the king and not his other son to Arwen

.
The son is grown up man, not a baby, which could stand in the way.Arwen might have a change of her heart and sail West. Besides, he died, remember?

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Please forgive anything that may sound hostile as what may sound hostile to you iseally extremely think sarcasm

No need to apologize. I understand how you feel. Very few people could read my postings without derision. I got used to sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

He said that Halbarad was of closekinship with Aragorn

.
That ‘s right. Somebody who took the place (a throne) of Chieftain of Dunedainin in the absence of crownless king, and by the custom it should be someone next of kin.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Someone has to be next in line if Aragorn fails right!? If you go far enough back someone would have been the rightful place keeper if Aragorn fell with no heir.

You have very valid point.I was thinking why Elrond sent only two of his sons, and not the elves army.He sure knew that Aragorn in the dire need of manpower, and he sure can find a few dozens of elves, at least Elladan‘s and Elrohir‘s own squad. And your posting led me to a thought, that this two are not just accompanying Dunedain. It’s Dunedain are accompanying a Coronation committee.
When things started to turn too dangerous for Aragorn, Elrond made sure that in the grave situation if Aragorn falls, the substitute could be right at hands. The sons of Elrond wii confirm that he indeed the carrier of Isildur’s line and :�The long Life to Halbarad, the King of Gondor and Arnor!�!

Originally Posted by Artanis

Equally she would not have married Aragorn if he had not been true to their love.

She did not ask him, nor he did any pledge of allegiance to her. It happened 30 years later.
Would you hold it against your man for with whom he had been before you?

Originally Posted by Valandil

Did they have urges? Yes... but those were opportunities to practice self-control. Besides, they would have been reinforced by a culture where the peer pressure was to wait, rather than to indulge all urges...

I think, concerning constant unrests in the Middle-earth, “the peer pressure�, rather than wait, was to continue your line, to produce a heir and, if possible, not one. This is a natural human instinct of self-preservance.

Originally Posted by Valandil

But only the next in line was considered the rightful king, and if something happened to him, there were generally laws of succession to determine who would follow.

Right. And by “general law of succession� Halbarad was taking a charge over abandoned by their king Dunadain.

Originally Posted by Valandil

In the case of Halbarad, there are many ways he could be related to Aragorn ...

Agree. I'm just pointing out that they were close related. Close enough to put Halbarad as a successor of Aragorn

Originally Posted by Valandil

I suspect that when Aragorn first went into the wild, at age 20, that he first went to meet his own people, and traveled with a few of them initially.

Possible. I think, in his situation to come to his own kind was the first thing to do.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Also, I doubt Elrond would have let the Dúnedain turn Rivendell into a substitute for their royal court.

I’ll tell you just one of the reasons. By giving a shelter in his fortress to the homeless Dunedain he was acquiring a compact, very well trained, experienced in combat, mobile ,grateful and absolutely loyal to the elves assembly of Numenorian’s descendants .

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But succession went in direct line, therefore the son of the chieftain would be first to succeed, before his uncle. And his son before the children of the uncle.

And in the absence of children?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Which doesn't mean Halbarad is also a direct heir to the throne, he may as easily have been close kin through Gilraen.

And in the absence of direct heir?

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I doubt it. If Halbarad was the heir of Isildur then surely he to would have abided in Rivendell so the line would be preserved.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

He was only two years old when his father died so it would be many years before he could have an heir. The risks of losing the last heir of Isildur were suddenly a lot higher than ever. In that I call Aragorn the exception.

And nevertheless he was not brought up sheltered, because by the young age of 20 he returned to Rivendell ALREADY having done “a great deeds�, which is, considering situation in Eriador, could be no other than an active participation in a BIG fights with orcs or other enemies.
Elrond does not strike me as being ignorant or completely stupid not to understand that such arrangement is a sure thing to lose the last heir of Isildur. What the point to protect him till puberty and then send on slaying mission where he could be easily killed, as it happened to his father?
Such arrangement could be acceptable under only one condition: the line of Isildur can continue by the next of kin.
In this light I see no reason to make an exception to Aragorn, and I suspect there was none. He was treated like all others Isildur’s heirs.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

…if his father had lived longer I doubt his lineage would have been kept a secret for Aragorn until he was 20. There would have been no need IMO

.
There was no need , period!

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Aragorn met ARwen when he was extremely young and he remained faithful.

Aragorn met Arwen being extremely young. That right . And have got “Butt off� from Erlond who straightforwardly told him that she has “lineage greater� than his and “she is too far above� him, that to her he is just a wet-nosed kid.
He did not make any promises to Arwen. Actually, I think that he “went into the wild� alone looking for danger particularly because he had no hopes to get Arwen’s hand.

Originally Posted by Haradrim

.He didnt spend any periods of time away from the sons of elrond or Elrond so they would have stopped him if he ever got the urge.

So, you are saying that Elrond put two “wachdogs�on young Aragorn to keep him from straying?

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Aragorn wouldn't have married Arwen if he already had a child

Why not?As Lefty Scaevola pointed out, it was not illegimate arrangement.

Originally Posted by Valandil

And it does not say that Isildur's descendants were fostered in Rivendell, it says that his heirs were. That would be a succession of young men, one at a time…

Or several at the time, your brothers are heirs of your father just as you are.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I almost wonder if there was something similar to what Ar-Pharazon had done to seize the throne of Numenor: perhaps this evil lord seized the hand in marriage of Rhudaur's last surviving descendant (I'm thinking of writing a little fanfic story about it! )

Oh. I did not see that parallel …This is really good idea!

[Valandil]

Well Olmer, you have not convinced me, but I sure admire you for supporting your case. I guess part of my viewpoint with taking these things more at face value is just the hunch (on my part) that in trying to create new fairy tales and mythologies, that Tolkien's people were idealized. That's why it's not a problem for them to suppress natural urges, etc. In that regard, in fact, all the Kings of Arnor and Arthedain, on up to the chieftains, had very long stretches of time between their births... about 90 years apart at first, down to maybe 60 or 65 years at the end. That's a long time to wait after puberty, but to me there's an inbuilt consistency... and an opportunity to try to believe in an ideal - of goodness, faithfulness - all those other qualities we like to teach to our children.

Oh - and yes, my brothers and I are all heirs of my father, however, if my father were a king, only my older brother would be heir to his throne.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Or if your brother died the next eldest son would be, by rights, the next heir to your father. Therefore it is a possibility that even the youngest son of a king may become the heir to the throne. Therefore I feel that not only one mad was fostered in Rivendell. Several men, no fewer than two at the least, dwelt in Imladris. Therefore whoever the next in line was he most likely dwelt for a time in Imladris. Aragorn could after all suffer a heart attack, or fall off a cliff, or be killed by orcs in the wild! If aragorn met an untimely death the Dunedain would be in sh1t creek, as would Elrond! So it would be implausible to think thatonly Aragorn was fostered in Rivendell. And absurd to think the the Dunedain had no contact with Aragorn in his youth! Some of the Dunedain must have dwelt in Rivendel even if it was not for a permenant time. Considering that Halbarad is the only mentioned ranger other than Aragorn it would seem that Tolkien wished for him to have some purpose beyond what he had in the books. Most likely the only reason we don't know this information is because of the success of Aragorn, like I said in previous posts it was completely irrelevent that Halbarad was heir following Aragorn because Aragorn survived! However Olmers comment on my previous post made me think that Elrohir and Elladan maybe would not accompany the next in line to become king to a battle where he could perish. That is exactlly what happened too. Halabard died on the fields of the Pelennor, if aragorn had died as well everyone once again would be up sh1t creek! So maybe Halbarad is not directly next in line. Yet I still like to think so cause Halbarad is just that good

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

She did not ask him, nor he did any pledge of allegiance to her. It happened 30 years later.
Would you hold it against your man for with whom he had been before you?

Of course I would, I would NOT have married Celeborn if he had not been a virgin!

Well then, in RL I wouldn't, but there I am not an Elf used to Elvish customs. When Aragorn first met Arwen in his 20eth year, she must have recognised his love for her. She even hinted that she liked him too, saying that her fate might become similar to that of Lúthien. All that I know about Elvish customs tells me that she would expect him to remain faithful to her if he planned to marry her later. The Elves simply do not have more than one lover. I think that Arwen knew at once that he would be able to wait for her, and she would not have liked him so much if she didn't see those qualities in him.

When Arwen saw Aragorn again in Lórien, he was like en Elf-Lord to look at. In my mind, that means both his physical appearance and his spiritual presence. I am convinced that if he had not been faithful, he would not have appeared to Arwen as noble as an Elf-Lord, and she would not have been betrothed to him. I base this on what I know about the ability of the Elves to read the hearts of humans who were noble enough to have nothing to hide.

Lefty, even if the MÃ*riel/Finwë/Indis story would make a precedence, I don't think it is comparable to the case of Arwen/Aragorn. Finwë had not fallen in love with Indis before he married MÃ*riel. A marriage may be lawful, but that doesn't mean that the people involved will accept it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Aragorn met Arwen being extremely young. That right . And have got “Butt off� from Erlond who straightforwardly told him that she has “lineage greater� than his and “she is too far above� him, that to her he is just a wet-nosed kid.
He did not make any promises to Arwen. Actually, I think that he “went into the wild� alone looking for danger particularly because he had no hopes to get Arwen’s hand.

I don't think that Aragorn went into the wild looking for danger, he wasn't rash. There wasn't no hope that he would marry Arwen. Didn't Elrond say.

There will be no choice for Arwen, unless you Aragorn Arathorn's son come between us, and bring one of us, either you or me, to a bitter ending.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Or if your brother died the next eldest son would be, by rights, the next heir to your father. Therefore it is a possibility that even the youngest son of a king may become the heir to the throne. Therefore I feel that not only one mad was fostered in Rivendell. Several men, no fewer than two at the least, dwelt in Imladris. Therefore whoever the next in line was he most likely dwelt for a time in Imladris. Aragorn could after all suffer a heart attack, or fall off a cliff, or be killed by orcs in the wild! If aragorn met an untimely death the Dunedain would be in sh1t creek, as would Elrond! So it would be implausible to think thatonly Aragorn was fostered in Rivendell. And absurd to think the the Dunedain had no contact with Aragorn in his youth! Some of the Dunedain must have dwelt in Rivendel even if it was not for a permenant time. Considering that Halbarad is the only mentioned ranger other than Aragorn it would seem that Tolkien wished for him to have some purpose beyond what he had in the books. Most likely the only reason we don't know this information is because of the success of Aragorn, like I said in previous posts it was completely irrelevent that Halbarad was heir following Aragorn because Aragorn survived! However Olmers comment on my previous post made me think that Elrohir and Elladan maybe would not accompany the next in line to become king to a battle where he could perish. That is exactlly what happened too. Halabard died on the fields of the Pelennor, if aragorn had died as well everyone once again would be up sh1t creek! So maybe Halbarad is not directly next in line. Yet I still like to think so cause Halbarad is just that good

Wow! Some people take a leap, some athletes do the 'triple-jump' - but you're just taking leap after leap after leap here!

An interesting study of somebody going through the process of convincing himself to believe something!

EDIT: Hope that doesn't sound too mean... but the post just struck me as sorta funny.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Artanis

All that I know about Elvish customs tells me that she would expect him to remain faithful to her if he planned to marry her later. The Elves simply do not have more than one lover. I think that Arwen knew at once that he would be able to wait for her, and she would not have liked him so much if she didn't see those qualities in him.

"Laws and Customs" states that the Eldar do not bring forth children in times of doubt and travail. I think the Dunedain had similar customs, and the bit agout Aragorn's resisting Éowyn's advances when all the men I know would have jumped her is given to show Aragorn's chastity. A far, far better man than I, I have always thought.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Wow! Some people take a leap, some athletes do the 'triple-jump' - but you're just taking leap after leap after leap here!

An interesting study of somebody going through the process of convincing himself to believe something!

EDIT: Hope that doesn't sound too mean... but the post just struck me as sorta funny.

Haha, it's a LotR message board. Entmoot. I talk about LotR, its aentertaining to talk about hypothetical aspects of Tolkien's world. I like to do my best to make as much of a flawless point when making a point.(Guess thats good considering im trying to get into law) I don't take any offense. I make a lot of wold claims in these threads. Im just glad that I don't get flammed in here like other boreds, just for voicing my opinion! So... im not really convincing myself, although if your trying to convince someone else the best way to do it is to think like them and then disprove yourself, im convinsing others to believe what im saying might be true. I mean come on, who wouldnt want Halbarad as their king!?

[Gordis]

I realize I am late in this tread, but as Olmer asked my opinion on the matter, here it is.
First of all I agree entirely with Valandil:
[Quote=Valandil]I do not doubt that most chieftains (and earlier kings) had multiple children. However, the line of kingship always went to the oldest son... that's just the way it was. It doesn't mean that any others had any less of Isildur's genetic code than the king... but the one in line to be king held that station. In fact, after 38 or 39 generations, probably a good chunk of the surviving Dunedain were descended in some way from Valandil, Isildur's son (just do the math!). But only the next in line was considered the rightful king, and if something happened to him, there were generally laws of succession to determine who would follow. I wouldn't be surprised if most chieftains and kings had at least 2 or 3 sons... for 'insurance' if nothing else... and they likely had as many daughters as sons, over the course of time. However, I don't think there's any way Arathorn had other children - that would have been significant enough to mention. [\Quote].

I believe that in 3000 years practically ALL the Dunedain of the north could trace their ancestry back to Valandil. The custom even demanded them to intermarry within the royal line, at least not to "mingle with lesser men". So there was a choice of cousins twice, trice etc. removed.

I think Olmer is right that the youth of Aragorn in Imladris was typical for Dunedain children, at least closest to the direct line of succession. I believe Erlond proclaimed the next chieftain himself always choosing the rightful one (eldest son of the eldest son of the eldest son...), unless the boy was obviously unfit for the position (Has it ever happened, though?). I believe that every chieftain had a named heir, even before they get married, not a bastard son, of course, but a younger brother or a cousin. Next in the line of succession under the law. When the Chieftain got a LEGETIMATE son, then the latter was proclaimed the Chieftain's heir in preference to a former one (a brother or a cousin). That is exactly as it is done in all royal lines.

So I believe Halbarad was Aragorn's heir, otherwise he would not be his next in command.Perhaps he was a cousin or a second cousin, but of course not a bastard son. And yes, if Aragorn died, then Halbarad would have got Anduril and become a new king. If he perished as well, then there will be the next rightful heir. Probably the Gray company included several heirs, knowing their order of succession. And it was not so dangerous for Elrond to send them because many had children raised in Imladris that would survive.

As for Aragorn being a virgin.... I really don't know whether any men could reach the elvish ideal of chastity. But I am sure that, unlike elves, Dunedain men had to be married legitimely before siring LEGITIMATE children. The elvish custom : a couple is considered married once they get to bed, will simply not work in a human kingdom, not entirely populated with part-elves. So the question of Aragorn's chastity (though perhaps important for Arwen) had no bearing on the succession of the throne. Do you think that a son of a Prancing Pony chambermaid by Aragorn could seriously claim Arnor's kinship? The most he would ever get is a yearly bag of gold coins from Elrond's treasury. The Dunedain were a proud people and a bastard is a bastard.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

But I am sure that, unlike elves, Dunedain men had to be married legitimely before siring LEGITIMATE children.
The Dunedain were a proud people and a bastard is a bastard.

I don’t agree on “bastard� assertion. First of it, the whole notion of the illegimate child came from religious doctrines presented to the major population for acceptance of believe .This rule did not come from the depth of ages, we created it .By the law of nature ANY child you conceived is LEGIMATE, because he is your flesh and blood. It would be too rush to apply our standarts to the population which has nothing to do with religion. So “bastard� definition may not be applicable for even so proud generations of dangerously fast declining in numbers Dunedain.

But any way, I believe that Aragorn, as Thorongil, being near Ecthelion in counsel for 23 years, and getting very high esteem and honor amongst Gondorians, had no problem to find an eligible maiden with Numenorian kings ancestry in her blood. As we know , he had no promises from Elrond of Arwen’s hand, and she did nothing in her turn to assure the dirty-nosed and sleeping under the trees ranger of her love.
So, it has been assumed that for 30 years he had no hopes to get married and produce a heir, practicing an abstinence.. According to medical affirmation , the very prolonged practice of self-denial leads to the loss of reproductive abilities. Aragorn’s reproductive functions was not his own business; being the last successor of such hip lineage of Kings, it was HIS DUTY to leave a heir before undertaking dangerous assignments.
In 30 years of human life a lot of things might happened. It’s very possible that the mother of his child died and kid has been brought (or sent) lately to Imladris, where he has been brought up amongst other potential successors of Isildur’s line without being announced who he is ( as in case of Aragorn).

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I don’t agree on “bastard� assertion. First of it, the whole notion of the illegimate child came from religious doctrines presented to the major population for acceptance of believe .This rule did not come from the depth of ages, we created it .By the law of nature ANY child you conceived is LEGIMATE, because he is your flesh and blood. It would be too rush to apply our standarts to the population which has nothing to do with religion. So “bastard� definition may not be applicable for even so proud generations of dangerously fast declining in numbers Dunedain.).

I am surely not an expert in this matter, but I believe the notion of bastards versus legetimate children necessarily follows the notion of "marriage". IMHO it is present in all the cultures, whatever gods they worship, especially at the stage of developed monarchies. I believe there was no monarchy known in history where bastards had equal rights with legitimate children. After all, how (without the DNA analysis) can a bastard prove that he really is the son of a given man?
Moreover, if you agree that there were other descendants of Valandil among the dunedain why is it necessary to invent an unlikely story about Halbarad being Aragorn's son?

Originally Posted by Olmer

According to medical affirmation , the very prolonged practice of self-denial leads to the loss of reproductive abilities. ).

Sure it is true for ordinary men. But it seems that such things do not apply to part-elven Elros's descendants. There is another, even stranger, thing about them. Since the time of Aldarion and Erendis there was the law that the descendants of Elros should not marry any outsiders. Isildur's line seemingly followed the custom. Inbreeding within a small restricted population normally leads to woman infertility, deformities and cretinism in children. And those effects become apparent much earlier than in 5000 years. It seems that Tolkien has not even considered such issues.