Ilúvatar good & evil

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
As far as evil - and whether or not Eru created evil by creating Melkor - I would say, as others have a bit, that Tolkien was following principles of Judeo-Christian thought, wherein the Creator made other beings whom He granted 'free will' - and that they were even given lattitude within that 'free will' to do what was wrong, if they so chose.

interesting... however, does eru (like a father) have any responsibility for how his child (melkor) exercises that "free will"?

is upbringing, or possibly the lack of, a factor at all?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
interesting... however, does eru (like a father) have any responsibility for how his child (melkor) exercises that "free will"?

is upbringing, or possibly the lack of, a factor at all?

If you want to use the 'father' analogy, I'd say that as fathers, we try our best to teach our children to make right choices. At some point though, we let them go... and the choices they make are their own. Perhaps much of what we teach them will stay with them, but that depends on how receptive they were (or decided to be) to what we taught. The ownership of their choices is on them.

In the specific case of Eru and Melkor, I would suggest that Melkor had the capacity to make right choices, but persistently did otherwise.

In one of the other threads (GM forum) I mention the 'Christian' viewpoint of evil as NOT being OPPOSITE of good, but a deviation from good - or an 'incomplete' good, however slight. This is pertintent to our discussion not because I am a Christian, but because JRRT was... and seems to have carried over many Christian principles into his Middle-earth mythology and stories.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
If you want to use the 'father' analogy, I'd say that as fathers, we try our best to teach our children to make right choices. At some point though, we let them go... and the choices they make are their own. Perhaps much of what we teach them will stay with them, but that depends on how receptive they were (or decided to be) to what we taught. The ownership of their choices is on them.

In the specific case of Eru and Melkor, I would suggest that Melkor had the capacity to make right choices, but persistently did otherwise.

i would agree... it just seems to me, unless there is a lot we are not told about, that melkor was given very little if anything in the way of teaching... even after his actions during the music... in fact, eru even said that it was all part of the greater plan

And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.

there are parents who say "do this because i say so" and parents who do their best to explain their reasoning... eru could be seen as somewhat of the former... in which case he would bear some of the responsibility for how things turned out

a third option would be that eru is somewhat neutral and just created and then waited to see what would happen... if this is the case, there is really no blame to be laid... things just are what they are

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Valandil In one of the other threads (GM forum) I mention the 'Christian' viewpoint of evil as NOT being OPPOSITE of good, but a deviation from good - or an 'incomplete' good, however slight. This is pertintent to our discussion not because I am a Christian, but because JRRT was... and seems to have carried over many Christian principles into his Middle-earth mythology and stories.
_________________________

Yes, Tolkien shared C.S. Lewis's view of evil (see "The Great Divorce").
From "Letters" #183: "In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning
well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things
according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the
(economic) well-being of the other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i would agree... it just seems to me, unless there is a lot we are not told about, that melkor was given very little if anything in the way of teaching... even after his actions during the music... in fact, eru even said that it was all part of the greater plan

there are parents who say "do this because i say so" and parents who do their best to explain their reasoning... eru could be seen as somewhat of the former... in which case he would bear some of the responsibility for how things turned out

a third option would be that eru is somewhat neutral and just created and then waited to see what would happen... if this is the case, there is really no blame to be laid... things just are what they are

Tuor's post, between yours and this, also sheds light on the subject in the same regard. But think of it this way... Melkor's first choice was to either join in the music of the Ainar or to sing his own tune - and he chose the latter. Seems a rather innocuous thing, doesn't it? The family is singing 'Happy Birthday' and one of the children sings 'Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star' - and we all laugh. Melkor's first 'straying' was just a small thing - but it was straying nonetheless, and led to further, farther, wider straying.

I believe Eru is modeled very much on the 'Christian' concept of God. I think he WAS conceived to be all-good and all-powerful. He even wove Melkor's 'strayings' back into his theme - as we Christians believe that God can take what is evil, or meant for evil, and work it into His Good Will.

[brownjenkins]

i think you are probably correct on JRRTs intentions... though i would prefer to think that all-good and all-powerful creator would have forseen melkor's reaction to some extent and done a bit more to help lead him down the correct path in the first place... though i am also assuming that this creator is "all-knowing", and maybe he is not

eru's actions are left largely, if not completely, unexplained to his children... and if you choose to create beings with free will, i think you must expect some of them to react negatively to what could easily be seen by them as a restriction upon this free will you have given them... not so much out of "evil", but out of fear of the unknown

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i would agree... it just seems to me, unless there is a lot we are not told about, that melkor was given very little if anything in the way of teaching... even after his actions during the music... in fact, eru even said that it was all part of the greater plan...

That's the impression I also got from reading. The Valar were simply, made... as they were... with everything they were and the Gifts they were given from Eru. Anything that might have developed seemed to stem from how Eru made them.

...a third option would be that eru is somewhat neutral and just created and then waited to see what would happen... if this is the case, there is really no blame to be laid... things just are what they are

True, I thought this also when reading it, that Eru starts the ball in action... then watches the courses of action unfold, as it were.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
...I believe Eru is modeled very much on the 'Christian' concept of God. I think he WAS conceived to be all-good and all-powerful. He even wove Melkor's 'strayings' back into his theme - as we Christians believe that God can take what is evil, or meant for evil, and work it into His Good Will.

I don't think so (regarding Judeo-Christian god taking evil and working it into good will). In the Judeo-Christian mythology, the angel who is most like Melkor (Satan) is cast from heaven and given his own, separate and distinct place to rule. Supposedly, there is always a struggle between Satan and the Judeo-Christan god for the souls of mortals, and that fight does not end until the end of time. This mythology differs from JRRT's mythology in that Melkor is allowed to inhabit ME, taking on a physical form and interacting (ie, battling) with the Children who reside there. It is the other Valar (ie, angel-gods) who act against him and battle him. In the Judeo-Christian mythology, however, Satan is cast down by the one god.

With this in mind, I think JRRT incorporated a few, but not all of the characteristics from the Judeo-Christan mythology, but expanded upon them. Therefore, if Eru existed in the void where only he existed, it is possible that when the Valar were created the propensity to do Evil could have come from Eru himself.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I don't think so (regarding Judeo-Christian god taking evil and working it into good will). In the Judeo-Christian mythology, the angel who is most like Melkor (Satan) is cast from heaven and given his own, separate and distinct place to rule. Supposedly, there is always a struggle between Satan and the Judeo-Christan god for the souls of mortals, and that fight does not end until the end of time. This mythology differs from JRRT's mythology in that Melkor is allowed to inhabit ME, taking on a physical form and interacting (ie, battling) with the Children who reside there. It is the other Valar (ie, angel-gods) who act against him and battle him. In the Judeo-Christian mythology, however, Satan is cast down by the one god.

With this in mind, I think JRRT incorporated a few, but not all of the characteristics from the Judeo-Christan mythology, but expanded upon them. Therefore, if Eru existed in the void where only he existed, it is possible that when the Valar were created the propensity to do Evil could have come from Eru himself.

Ah - a common misconception about the Christian understanding of God... either that or your response in the first paragraph misses part of what I was saying. To expound a bit on the Christian view of God:

God DOES work evil into good. I was intending to say that God works things toward His Will... I added the word 'Good' to describe 'His Will'... not to be using the term 'good will' - so sorry if I was unclear. The Bible tells us that God works evil into good. Why - even the crucifiction... Satan was quite certainly at work in those who opposed Jesus and sought His destruction... but, know what? God worked all that into His Plan of salvation for mankind!

God is not really in a struggle for souls with Satan. Satan has led mankind astray, and God has reached back out to mankind anyway... giving us the choice to return to Him. Talk of a struggle between the two is off the mark... we don't view them as equal opponents or God as being two or three or even ten times as powerful as Satan... God is infinitely more powerful than Satan! In His Forebearance, God withholds His Hand, so that mankind may be saved.

A bit inconclusive about whether God cast Satan from Heaven. Some passages indicate that possibility, but they don't exactly spell it out - and some make other conclusions from the texts.

Yes, Melkor is quite representative of Satan - or at least similar to him - more than he is similar to any 'mythological' dieties. However, God HAS allowed Satan to inhabit the earth and Satan WAS allowed to take on physical form (remember the serpent in the Garden of Eden?).

I agree with some of the rest of what you say... that JRRT didn't EXACTLY parallel Eru and the way he works with his creation to God and the way He works with His Creation. However, he did seem to largely base Eru on God. I disagree that Eru 'planted' evil in those he created. Similar to how we Christians believe about things, I think being given the capacity for choice allows one to choose to do wrong... it doesn't in itself create the wrong which can be chosen. Because remember that in our view, wrong is not necessarily 'opposite' of right... it can be merely a slight deviation from right. Moral responsibility for the choice is on the chooser, not the creator - in either realm!

And I don't buy that Eru was a 'bad parent' either! Remember that any analogy breaks down at some point - and this may be the point where the 'parent analogy' breaks down. And... if Melkor ALSO had the capacity to chose to obey - again, is HE not the one responsible for choosing NOT to obey?

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Ruinel
In the Judeo-Christian mythology, however, Satan is cast down by the one god.

I believe you're wrong there. At least, in the catholic tradition, it is popularly believed that Satan fought with St. Michael Archangel (?), and it was him who cast down Satan.

I don't know what's the textual basis for this in the Book, but at least I've read a passage (I think it's from Isiah) where St. Michael laments about the falling of Lucifer (=Satan) who had been the brightest between the servants of God.

That passage made me think that they were probably very close "friends", just as Manwe and Melkor were brothers in the mind of Eru. I think that biblical conception also passed to the Ainulindale.

I'll try to research some text for this.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Fat Middle, that reminds me of Paradise Lost by John Milton which was an awesome read.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Fat Middle, that reminds me of Paradise Lost by John Milton which was an awesome read.

Yep, that's an awesome work

I've found the text I was referring to, but is seems I was wrong about St. Michael, there is no referrence to him in the text (I think it was just me that thought in him while reading that). In fact there is direct referrence to de devil either, but being a prophecy it has been traditionally understood so.

(Isaiah 14:12-14)
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the most High."

As in most prophetical texts of the Bible, there is a historical meaning (Lucifer = the King of Babylon) but there can be also another meanings.

Anyway, when I read that the image in my mind is Manwe speaking about Melkor

[Fat middle]

I've found another reference to this in Ezekiel. Here the prophet is speaking about the King of Tyre, but it is traditionally understood as to Lucifer:

" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.[*]
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

The footnote says:

[*]The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.

Hehe , but of course we know that beryl is a pale-green elf-stone

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
And I don't buy that Eru was a 'bad parent' either! Remember that any analogy breaks down at some point - and this may be the point where the 'parent analogy' breaks down. And... if Melkor ALSO had the capacity to chose to obey - again, is HE not the one responsible for choosing NOT to obey?

so you don't think the eru had any responsibility to try to lead his children down the right path?

i understand the free choice argument from a christian perspective... but i don't understand how you could hold someone responsible for a choice if you don't first explain right and wrong, along the the reasoning behind it

i don't necessarily see eru as a bad parent... in fact, i see him involved so little i would almost say he is not a parent at all... more of a neutral observer unless absolutely necessary

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
so you don't think the eru had any responsibility to try to lead his children down the right path?

i understand the free choice argument from a christian perspective... but i don't understand how you could hold someone responsible for a choice if you don't first explain right and wrong, along the the reasoning behind it

i don't necessarily see eru as a bad parent... in fact, i see him involved so little i would almost say he is not a parent at all... more of a neutral observer unless absolutely necessary

But what about Melkor? Would you say he was more like a 'child' or more like an 'adult' at the time he began to stray? This is an angelic being... I don't believe his thinking was child-like. I think he's fully accountable for his choice - and was created to be so.

[Ruinel]

The Valar were made by Eru already fully formed in who they would be. Melkor would not be considered a child, IMO.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
But what about Melkor? Would you say he was more like a 'child' or more like an 'adult' at the time he began to stray? This is an angelic being... I don't believe his thinking was child-like. I think he's fully accountable for his choice - and was created to be so.

more of a "child" in terms of experience... much like the genesis story, where i've always assumed adam and eve were created as adults... but were far from it in terms of real-world experience... after all, they were just created

how could they be expected to fully realize the implications of any course of action they might take? we learn by what we are taught and by experience... i see no "teaching" on the part of eru... and in fact, he doesn't seem to even really reprimand melkor for his actions... which leads me back to the idea that eru wished to remain more of an outsider to his creation and just see what happened

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
so you don't think the eru had any responsibility to try to lead his children down the right path?

i understand the free choice argument from a christian perspective... but i don't understand how you could hold someone responsible for a choice if you don't first explain right and wrong, along the the reasoning behind it

i don't necessarily see eru as a bad parent... in fact, i see him involved so little i would almost say he is not a parent at all... more of a neutral observer unless absolutely necessary

I hope to jump into this discussion more next week - but just a few quick notes:

Re Iluvatar and the Christian God - IIRC, JRRT says in Letters that they're one and the same (ref. coming up)

Re responsibility : I think it would have been pretty lousy of God to create beings with free choice (and thus the possibility of willfully choosing wrong) w/o taking responsibility - but He DID indeed take responsibility. Any guesses/opinions how?

Re rebuking Melkor - Eru did do this, IIRC (ref. coming up)


EDIT - changed some wording, was v. terse due to lack of time...

[Ruinel]

Rian, you are so terse.

There are differences between Eru and the Christian god. Even if JRRT says in Letters that they are one in the same, he has definitely chosen to create a new character different from the Christian god. Though I do see similarities, I do not see a cloned character.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Rian, you are so terse.

There are differences between Eru and the Christian god. Even if JRRT says in Letters that they are one in the same, he has definitely chosen to create a new character different from the Christian god. Though I do see similarities, I do not see a cloned character.

I have to agree with this. Also, another difference is that Heaven and Hell seem to be on earth and nowhere else, although the Timeles halls and the void were beyond Arda. Since Tolkien made God, the Valar, and the Children, to be able to interact together and aside from Eru, they all dwelt in Arda, it makes it different from the Christian version. The only similarities I see, is that there is a god, a devil of sorts, devine beings, and good and evil.