Forces of the Valar

[Sween]

this has allways been a bit perplexing to me and of great intrest also. at the comming of elves the valar sent a force to attack ulmo but what were types of people in this and the numbers?

Obvosly it would be valar and maiar on the main part but would anyone one else be there? Would any of our old favorites of taken part gandalf saurman for example.

Of the maiar is any part which states how many of these sprits entred the world? im guessing a lot more than are mentioned in lord of the rings and the sil.

[Ñólendil]

There were fourteen Valar not counting Morgoth, the number of the Maiar is specifically said to be unknown.

Eonwe was in the War of Wrath, but no one else is mentioned by name. It seems likely that Orome and Tulcas were involved, but no one knows.

[Radagast The Brown]

I always thought that all the valar went to the war , but now when you think about it, it's not logical that all of them will. I'm pretty sure that Manwe was in the war too, somehow.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think not Radagast. I think the war consisted of mostly Vanyarin Elves and the remnant of Noldorin Elves that were left in Valinor at the time of the Exile

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think not Radagast. I think the war consisted of mostly Vanyarin Elves and the remnant of Noldorin Elves that were left in Valinor at the time of the Exile

but what about the attack on undun at the comming of the elves?

I would love to envision a mssive battle of valar and maiar

[Ñólendil]

I doubt SGH meant to exclude the Maiar, but I agree that all the Valar probably did not go. Why would Eonwe, Herald of Manwe, be the general of the armies if Manwe had come? I'll believe Tulkas or Orome, but not the others.

MM had the idea that Tulkas and Orome may have gone specifically to combat the greater demons and beasts of Morgoth, respectively. I do not personally see the need for sending (say) Ulmo or Vána to war.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I expect that Valar and Maiar, particularly thoses of Aule, were needed for the business of digging out the "Melkor element", the power that Morgoth had spread out and stored in the land, which was necesarry to be done before asailling Morgoth in Angband, and which was the likely cause of Beleriand comming apart at the seams.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Nolendil
MM had the idea that Tulkas and Orome may have gone specifically to combat the greater demons and beasts of Morgoth, respectively. I do not personally see the need for sending (say) Ulmo or Vána to war.

I don't think that the powers of Ulmo were limited just to water. As I don't think that Manwe's powers weren't limited just to air. I do think he could've help if he was there (and I guess he wasn't).

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
I doubt SGH meant to exclude the Maiar, but I agree that all the Valar probably did not go. Why would Eonwe, Herald of Manwe, be the general of the armies if Manwe had come? I'll believe Tulkas or Orome, but not the others.

MM had the idea that Tulkas and Orome may have gone specifically to combat the greater demons and beasts of Morgoth, respectively. I do not personally see the need for sending (say) Ulmo or Vána to war.

What demons and beasts would that be? Was that explained?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
I expect that Valar and Maiar, particularly thoses of Aule, were needed for the business of digging out the "Melkor element", the power that Morgoth had spread out and stored in the land, which was necesarry to be done before asailling Morgoth in Angband, and which was the likely cause of Beleriand comming apart at the seams.

Could that really be dug out? I thought the whole of ME was "Morgoth´s ring".

[Lefty Scaevola]

"Melkor strain" and stored power would be concentrated in some veins where he had been more particulary concerned and weaker in in other areas. There would almost certainly very strong concetrations of it in areas they he had been the main creator and around his strongholds where he resided and worked in a fixed place for many years. Thoses near Angband would also be the easiest for him to access at need, and thus required the most cleansing. Hence Beleriand was trashed.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
"Melkor strain" and stored power would be concentrated in some veins where he had been more particulary concerned and weaker in in other areas. There would almost certainly very strong concetrations of it in areas they he had been the main creator and around his strongholds where he resided and worked in a fixed place for many years. Thoses near Angband would also be the easiest for him to access at need, and thus required the most cleansing. Hence Beleriand was trashed.

Well, it sounds plausible. (Though I always perceived Morgoth´s "strain" to be focused more on certain elements than on geographical loci.) Did Tolkien expand on this in the writings in HoME for example?

[Ñólendil]

What demons and beasts would that be? Was that explained?

By "demons" I meant the servants of Morgoth who once belonged to the Maiar, who were certainly in the War, and by "beasts" I simply meant the beastly makings of Morgoth (or Sauron), which included the Vampires, Werewolves and Dragons, and -- I think -- many other nameless, dreadful things.

Did Tolkien expand on this in the writings in HoME for example?

Yes. See Volume X, Part 1 of the History of the Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring. His power and spirit was disseminated, not concentrated, but it is almost certainly true that the "Morgothian element" could be tapped into. I think Tolkien called it his moryo, his shadow, or something along those lines.

[Findegil]

I think, this thread is a bit of a misunderstanding.
The first question was meant for the War of Power and not for the Wra of Warth.

So my answer for the first question would be nearly all the Valar were in the War of Power. In the early drafts you se them clothed in their armor and taking wappens and in Tolkiens last ideas you here that Manwe did not expact that they could master Melkor. I think that would clearly mean that he would take all the forces he could. In addition to the Valar he would then also have brought fore all Maiar that harkend to his word.

Respectfully
Findegil

[celeb-galad]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Eonwe was in the War of Wrath, but no one else is mentioned by name. It seems likely that Orome and Tulcas were involved, but no one knows.

I doubt that Eonwë would be leading the host if the likes of Tulkas and Oromë were involved.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Eonwe is the Herald and Champion for Manwe in war, and thus acceptable to lead the host, even if Valar other Manwe are with it. His position in an aristocracy could be simimlar that that of a Lord marshal of Eangland, who was sometimes major nobility, and sometimes not, but was the Kings legate on the battlefield.

[celeb-galad]

Eonwë was the mightiest "presence" of goodness there IMO, Oromë and Tulkas would have been at least mentioned if they were there.
Plus, at one point in the battle the forces of the Valar were turned back, because of the onslaught of Ancalagon and his flight of dragons. Could the dragons, even Ancalagon the black, have done so if 2 of the VALAR fought against them? Doubtful, very doubtful.

[Ñólendil]

Eonwë was the mightiest "presence" of goodness there IMO, Oromë and Tulkas would have been at least mentioned if they were there.

The account Christopher Tolkien used for the Silmarillion was taken from the Book of Lost Tales, and from other bits and pieces from pre-LotR texts. Tolkien never revised it. The full account included Manwe's son, Fionwe (later known as Manwe's herald, Eonwe). There's a lot that would have been in a revised Of Eärendil and the War of Wrath, that is not in it now, I think.

[Captain Stern]

I'm sure a swarm of 100ft tall Dragons, each weighing around 70 tons, filled with the dire power of Melkor, and breathing eldritch fire, would be able to drive back any host, including one comprised of members of the Valar...

[Finmandos12]

I'm sure a swarm of 100ft tall Dragons, each weighing around 70 tons, filled with the dire power of Melkor, and breathing eldritch fire, would be able to drive back any host, including one comprised of members of the Valar...

Hardly. If Turin and Bard, men, could kill a dragon, I think that the Valar would able to do it pretty easily. They could drive back Elves, perhaps even weak Maia, but not Valar.