Half-Elves - Page 3

**Nurvingiel** · 08-17-2002, 06:38 PM

How does the Choice work exactly? For example, did Arwen actually make the choice with Aragorn right before the Fellowship set out from Rivendell? What was the significance of Arwen giving Aragorn her pendant?

You know you're confused when all your sentances end with question marks.

Artanis · 08-18-2002, 03:30 AM

There is no rule regarding the choices, the cases are all special.

In the book, Arwen made her choice almost 40 years before the journey of the Fellowship, when she and Aragorn plighted their troth(sp?) upon Cerin Amroth in Lorien. Her choice became irreversable when Elrond sailed over sea.

I think it is suggested that her twin brothers Elladan and Elrohir for some reason were admitted to delay their choice.

Christiana · 08-18-2002, 11:59 AM

i remember reading about her neclace somewhere

Blackheart · 08-20-2002, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis

So, the necklace was given to Frodo by Arwen, and at the same time she told him that he may go to the West if he wished, when the time was due. But the gem was meant as a gift of memory and aid in troubled hours, and not actually as a symbol of a 'place in the boat'. After all, both Sam and Bilbo went, as Ringbearers, and it was as a Ringbearer Frodo was admitted into the West.

She didn't give him the necklace as a symbol of her place on the ship, however that's what it symbolizes in the book, a sort of trading of places.

If you think about it, Luthien and Tour could be construed as "trading", though of course only if you view Mandos as a sort of bean-counter.

Artanis · 08-20-2002, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackheart
She didn't give him the necklace as a symbol of her place on the ship, however that's what it symbolizes in the book, a sort of trading of places.

Hm. I re-read the actual passage in the book and I suppose it can be understood like you say, just that I never did and still does not. When Arwen says: 'in my place you shall go, Ringbearer', I don't see it as trading of places, only as a statement of facts. Frodo is a Ringbearer, so he is allowed to sail into the West. Besides, the necklace is never mentioned as a symbol of immortality in the book.

Blackheart · 08-20-2002, 09:47 PM

No, it would be a tad unsubtle to come right out and say it.

But I suppose it is a matter of interpretation.

Reumandar · 08-21-2002, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ã‘Ã³lendil

As for the Elfstone story, I do have a recollection of that. I think that idea that Gandalf brought it back from the Blessed Realm is more acceptable though, as the Celebrimbor idea involved Celebrimbor of Gondolin. As you know in the Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor was a FÃ«anorian.

didn't Celebrimbor live in Nargothrond?

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 08-22-2002, 06:12 AM

Yes, in my opinion, yes. That's my point. In the Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor is "descended from FÃ«anor", and the story that developed included his sojourn in Nargothrond, and he never lived in Gondolin. He was not of Fingolfin's people, but was FÃ«anor's grandson. Therefore the story about the Elessar being made by Celebrimbor of Gondolin should not be accepted.

Quote:

But I suppose it is a matter of interpretation.

No, you're right Blackheart. Tolkien says in a letter or two that Arwen gave Frodo her place.

Beruthiel · 08-28-2002, 02:40 AM

I know Tolkien might have said Arwen gave away her place, but - I see it more as (....especially after reading the Appendixes carefully) - that she really thought about sailing back. There WAS another ship, as I recall, that Legolas and Gimli took, but - I think she was too distraught to think of finding out about it.

I think she felt shame when she thought of going back on her promise to Aragorn, and in the end, did the "noble" thing.

The necklace and the Elessar being mixed up in the movie made me cringe. I wish they'd just stick to the facts!

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 08-28-2002, 04:22 PM

There were indeed still ships left in the Grey Havens in the Fourth Age, for not everybody left at the end of the Third. But the ship Gimli and Legolas took was built by Legolas, not the people of CÃ*rdan.

Bertuthiel · 08-28-2002, 08:19 PM

Wow, didn't Legolas turn out to be the crafty one! Cool. Thanks for that info!

Michael Martinez · 08-28-2002, 10:47 PM

Arwen did not exactly give away her place. Tolkien explains in at least one of his letters (two, I think) that Arwen would have consulted with Galadriel and perhaps Gandalf, who in turn would have asked the Valar that special dispensation be granted to Frodo and Bilbo.

By the time Arwen bestowed her gift upon Frodo, the decision to allow him to pass over Sea (if he desired) had been made by higher powers than the Queen of Gondor and Arnor.

Archbob the Elder · 08-29-2002, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Willow Oran
I'm so confused. Why is it that Elrond's children had a choice between mortality and immortality, while Elros's children didn't? It doesn't make sense to me.

It makes perfect sense. Elrond chose to be elf, therefore his children are young as long as he stays in middle-earth, but they may choose to go with him when he leaves or to grow old and die.

Elros chose to be human and therefore all his descendants must live with that decision.

So by Mathematical formula:

M(e)=I/k+g(l)^P(e)

Get it?

Willow Oran · 08-29-2002, 02:15 PM

Yes I get it, and it makes sense. I just don't like it.

Lefty Scaevola · 09-21-2002, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
How does the Choice work exactly? For example, did Arwen actually make the choice with Aragorn right before the Fellowship set out from Rivendell?

Her choice to becomes final when Elrond leaves middle Earth for Aman.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 09-22-2002, 12:56 AM

Welcome to Entmoot Lefty Scaevola.

08-17-2002, 06:38 PM	#41
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	The Choice How does the Choice work exactly? For example, did Arwen actually make the choice with Aragorn right before the Fellowship set out from Rivendell? What was the significance of Arwen giving Aragorn her pendant? You know you're confused when all your sentances end with question marks.

08-18-2002, 03:30 AM	#42
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	There is no rule regarding the choices, the cases are all special. In the book, Arwen made her choice almost 40 years before the journey of the Fellowship, when she and Aragorn plighted their troth(sp?) upon Cerin Amroth in Lorien. Her choice became irreversable when Elrond sailed over sea. I think it is suggested that her twin brothers Elladan and Elrohir for some reason were admitted to delay their choice. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

08-18-2002, 11:59 AM	#43
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	i remember reading about her neclace somewhere __________________ I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris

08-20-2002, 09:47 PM	#46
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	No, it would be a tad unsubtle to come right out and say it. But I suppose it is a matter of interpretation. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

08-28-2002, 04:22 PM	#50
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	There were indeed still ships left in the Grey Havens in the Fourth Age, for not everybody left at the end of the Third. But the ship Gimli and Legolas took was built by Legolas, not the people of CÃ*rdan. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

08-28-2002, 02:40 AM	#49
Beruthiel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 41	I know Tolkien might have said Arwen gave away her place, but - I see it more as (....especially after reading the Appendixes carefully) - that she really thought about sailing back. There WAS another ship, as I recall, that Legolas and Gimli took, but - I think she was too distraught to think of finding out about it. I think she felt shame when she thought of going back on her promise to Aragorn, and in the end, did the "noble" thing. The necklace and the Elessar being mixed up in the movie made me cringe. I wish they'd just stick to the facts!

08-28-2002, 08:19 PM	#51
Bertuthiel Sapling Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 14	Wow, didn't Legolas turn out to be the crafty one! Cool. Thanks for that info! __________________ Evil were the Cats of Queen Beruthiel. "Max! Zap! Oden, get off me! Agggghhhhh!"

08-28-2002, 10:47 PM	#52
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	Arwen did not exactly give away her place. Tolkien explains in at least one of his letters (two, I think) that Arwen would have consulted with Galadriel and perhaps Gandalf, who in turn would have asked the Valar that special dispensation be granted to Frodo and Bilbo. By the time Arwen bestowed her gift upon Frodo, the decision to allow him to pass over Sea (if he desired) had been made by higher powers than the Queen of Gondor and Arnor. __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

08-29-2002, 02:15 PM	#54
Willow Oran Deus Ex Machina Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,951	Yes I get it, and it makes sense. I just don't like it. __________________ "5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE. -Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi

09-22-2002, 12:56 AM	#56
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Welcome to Entmoot Lefty Scaevola.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor	Artanis	The Silmarillion Project	82	09-09-2018 05:50 AM
The Return of the elves, The new Rings of power, and The Re-Birth Of Middle-Earth	zavron	RPG Forum	18	01-25-2003 04:51 PM
Shadows in the East/ discussion	afro-elf	RPG Forum	45	04-15-2002 10:15 PM
Elves' physical characteristics	Vanimdil	Middle Earth	5	10-16-2001 05:28 PM
Middle-earth, Hollow Earth Fingolfin	shamballa	Middle Earth	4	10-10-2001 03:55 AM