I don't understand...(please read AND reply)

Faramir · 05-11-2002, 02:59 PM

I don't understand why the dwarves were so welcome in the Last Homely House...wouldn't there be a lot of tension between the elves and dwarves? I mean, aren't elves and dwarves prejudice against eachother?

Please answer!

***azalea*** · 05-11-2002, 07:57 PM

Quite honestly I don't think it was tension so much as the fact that they are very different in personality. Of course, The Hobbit was more of a children's story and a different book than LotR or Silm, so the relationship wasn't played up as much there. I think in The Hobbit the elves are more bemused by the dwarves and the dwarves are portayed as grim, with a wry sense of humor. The elves are lighthearted and playful. So the personalities are shown as being at odds, but that doesn't stop the dwarves from having a pleasant, restful stay in Rivendell. By the time of LotR, the dark lord has sent his servants out into the world and things are changing. Everyone has grown very mistrustful of other races. I think that accounts for some of the change in mood between the elves and dwarves by that time.

Carafin · 05-11-2002, 09:15 PM

Well, I like your point it is true that the Hobbit is more of a childrens story, but something to take into consideration is that Elrond is very wise and may have had his own reasonsfor welcoming the dwarves so kindly. also I think that as long as both parties (elves and dwarves) are nice to each other than they would get along quite well, after all the dwarves were friends of the elves long ago. And finally Elrond may not have wholly approved of the dwarves, but he was in no way opposed to the death of Smaug(it says "he hated dragons and thier cruel wickedness... and grieved at the ruin of Dale.

Faramir · 05-11-2002, 09:21 PM

Thanks! You've made it more clear to me now!

Findegil · 05-13-2002, 07:01 AM

I might add this:
The Elves of Rivendell were mostly of noldorin race. Rivendell was the last refuge for the remnants of Eregion (and of the rescue army that Elrond had let to that war against Sauron in the second age). The Elves of Eregion had lived in close friendship with the Dwarves of Khazad-dum. And Thorin was the descendant of the Kings of that dwarves.
With the kingdoms of the Elves east of the misty mountains thinks were very different. Their lords and leaders were of sindarin race and had come out of Doriath. So they had experienced or inherited the mistrust against dwarves in general that was the result of the dealing of Thingol with the dwarves of Nogorod and the following attack upon Doriath that led to the death of Thingol.

Regrads
Findegil

Strange-Looking Lurker · 05-13-2002, 08:46 AM

Don't forget that the fact that Gandalf was with them must have had an effect as well.

Christiana · 06-07-2002, 11:16 PM

Also, the times wern't as troubled then.

osszie · 06-26-2002, 02:33 PM

At this time many dwarves were "homeless wanderers" and as a race had been through many hardships..... compassion of course will win through prejudice, especially amongst the wise

Draken · 06-27-2002, 12:15 PM

I agree with the point that this is a book much more intended for young children, who might find the idea of shades of loyalty and friendship between the "goodies" confusing.

Also yes, it was the Sindar elves that had most cause to dislike dwarves. And let's not forget that Elrond had seen Men fighting for Sauron in his time yet still welcomed Men to Rivendell.

And finally, the dwarves were indeed a dwindling remnant of their former selves, more so even than the elves. And their last major undertaking, the war with the orcs, no doubt earned them respect from even the most skeptical elf.

So I suppose I'm agreeing with all the above!

Oh and hi osszie, nice to meet a fellow Durham-er!

osszie · 06-27-2002, 12:34 PM

"Dwarves don't get on with them (elves). Even decent enough dwarves like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think), or get annoyed with them. For some elves tease them and laugh at them, and most of all at their beards".

Think this sums up Tolkiens animosity in of the races in the hobbit very well. Of curse there is tension, but this being a story for children, he descibes it as such.

Whey hey!!! The Durham lads are here!!!

Draken · 06-27-2002, 03:53 PM

Haway osszie man!

Yep that sums it up very well I think.

Almost worth a pint in the Hogshead!

Blackheart · 06-27-2002, 04:16 PM

Well now. Thraindul (the Elven King) has a lot in common with Thingol. They both live in a cave, and lead "wood-elves"

If I'm not mistaken, however, Thingol preceeded Thraindul in conceptualization, but not publishing. Thraindul's dislike of dwarves can probably be at least partly attributed to the fact that his predecessor (both conceptually and in the integrated history) was killed by dwarves. Furthermore dwarves from the cities in Ered Luin, which is coincidentally where Thorin and Co. went into exile after the loss of the Kingdom Under the Mountain.

Rivendell on the otherhand, was founded after Sauron's near succesful attack during the second age, when he over ran Hollin. There were a lot of survivors from Hollin.

You remember Hollin right? That elf kingdom where they were so freindly with the dwarves of the dwarrowdelf? Durin's people in fact, which coincidentally (again) Thorin happened to be the eldest heir of?

Well well, isn't that odd how it all worked out?

Christiana · 06-27-2002, 06:35 PM

SamwiseGamgeeOTS · 06-29-2002, 04:57 PM

Honestly, I think that Elrond was just trying to be nice. I don't think that Elrond was really that kind of elf. I think that he just wanted to make a statement maybe, that all elves are not the same. I mean, ya didn't see anyone saying that they didn't want to go there. In fact they were all happy to be on their way there. But, it was kind of set up as a children's story. Maybe to ease a newcommer into Middle Earth without addressing all it's problems' at once.

Khadrane · 07-25-2002, 11:48 AM

I think that Elrond welcomed the Dwarves because he knew what there quest was and he wanted to help them achieve it. In "The Quest of Eerebor" in Unfinished Tales, it talks about how Gandalf knew Sauron was rising again and he was worried about what would happen if Sauron met up with Smaug and stuff like that (sorry, I can't remember it exactly) and that's why he helped the Dwarves on their adventure to destroy Smaug. I think that was basiclly Elrond's goal also.

The Lady of Ithilien · 08-12-2002, 08:12 PM

Well, too, there were dwarves and then there were Dwarves -- Thorin was held to be king of Durin's folk, even in exile, and some of his companions (Ori, Nori and Dori certainly, and Balin, Dwalin, Óin and Glóin too, if I read the family tree in Appendix A of LOTR correctly) were also of the line of Durin. Elrond would be guilty of lese majesty (? spelling) if he gave them the cold shoulder, but as you pointed out, he wasn't that kind of elf anyway.

But in any case Elrond showed Thorin a great honor by not making a fuss over Thorin's possession of Orcrist, a "famous blade" in Gondolin - as Turgon's great-grandson, Elrond could certainly have gotten pretty snitty over it. But he was wise, and "kind as summer," as Bilbo (I think) put it.

Nariel Starfire · 08-14-2002, 03:41 PM

also, after The Hobbit, Balin and his folks went to Moria. They "delved too deep" as Saruman said. And between the Hobbit and Lotr, remember what they awoke "in the darkness of Khazadum." THe elves may have been a little ticked at them for that. ANd that may have stirred in their minds, refreshing their uncomfortable feelings regarding dwarves

Blackheart · 08-14-2002, 04:14 PM

Err, the Dwarrowdelf succumbed to the Balrog long before the quest of Erebor.

Reference the Battle of Azanulbizar, in which Dáin Ironfoot slays Azog on the steps of Moria, only to withdraw from the gate.

He has seen the Balrog.

The Balrog was awakened by the miners of Durin VI, who was probably killed by the Balrog (Durin's Bane) shortly thereafter. Since Durin VI died in 1980 of the Third age, it's probably safe to say the 'rog wasn't awakened by Balin's expidition.

Though it might have been a little Irked by it.

If any elves were upset by anyone awakening the Balrog, it would have been with Durin VI, who woke it up a nearly 1000 years before Balin's attempt at recolonization in 2989

05-11-2002, 02:59 PM	#1
Faramir Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ithilien Posts: 353	I don't understand...(please read AND reply) I don't understand why the dwarves were so welcome in the Last Homely House...wouldn't there be a lot of tension between the elves and dwarves? I mean, aren't elves and dwarves prejudice against eachother? Please answer! __________________ This is the Window of the Sunset, Henneth Annun, fairest of all the falls of Ithilien, land of many fountains."-Faramir, Chapter IV, The Two Towers ========================== FRODO LIVES!!! ========================== YODA IS DA MAN!!! ========================== I Love Jesus!

05-11-2002, 09:15 PM	#3
Carafin Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: The warm (or West) coast of Canada Posts: 150	Well, I like your point it is true that the Hobbit is more of a childrens story, but something to take into consideration is that Elrond is very wise and may have had his own reasonsfor welcoming the dwarves so kindly. also I think that as long as both parties (elves and dwarves) are nice to each other than they would get along quite well, after all the dwarves were friends of the elves long ago. And finally Elrond may not have wholly approved of the dwarves, but he was in no way opposed to the death of Smaug(it says "he hated dragons and thier cruel wickedness... and grieved at the ruin of Dale. __________________ Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo; a star shines on the hour of our meeting, - LotR (FotR) four be the things I'd be better off without, love, curiousity, freckles, and doubt Queen Guinevere? ... Though all to ruin fell the world, And were dissolved and backward hurled, Unmade into the old abyss, Yet were its making good for this, The dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea, That Luthien for a time shoud be ~ ~Beren: The Song of Parting

05-11-2002, 09:21 PM	#4
Faramir Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ithilien Posts: 353	Thanks! You've made it more clear to me now! __________________ This is the Window of the Sunset, Henneth Annun, fairest of all the falls of Ithilien, land of many fountains."-Faramir, Chapter IV, The Two Towers ========================== FRODO LIVES!!! ========================== YODA IS DA MAN!!! ========================== I Love Jesus!

05-13-2002, 08:46 AM	#6
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	Don't forget that the fact that Gandalf was with them must have had an effect as well. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

06-07-2002, 11:16 PM	#7
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	Also, the times wern't as troubled then. __________________ I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris

05-11-2002, 07:57 PM	#2
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Quite honestly I don't think it was tension so much as the fact that they are very different in personality. Of course, The Hobbit was more of a children's story and a different book than LotR or Silm, so the relationship wasn't played up as much there. I think in The Hobbit the elves are more bemused by the dwarves and the dwarves are portayed as grim, with a wry sense of humor. The elves are lighthearted and playful. So the personalities are shown as being at odds, but that doesn't stop the dwarves from having a pleasant, restful stay in Rivendell. By the time of LotR, the dark lord has sent his servants out into the world and things are changing. Everyone has grown very mistrustful of other races. I think that accounts for some of the change in mood between the elves and dwarves by that time.

05-13-2002, 07:01 AM	#5
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	I might add this: The Elves of Rivendell were mostly of noldorin race. Rivendell was the last refuge for the remnants of Eregion (and of the rescue army that Elrond had let to that war against Sauron in the second age). The Elves of Eregion had lived in close friendship with the Dwarves of Khazad-dum. And Thorin was the descendant of the Kings of that dwarves. With the kingdoms of the Elves east of the misty mountains thinks were very different. Their lords and leaders were of sindarin race and had come out of Doriath. So they had experienced or inherited the mistrust against dwarves in general that was the result of the dealing of Thingol with the dwarves of Nogorod and the following attack upon Doriath that led to the death of Thingol. Regrads Findegil

06-26-2002, 02:33 PM	#8
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	At this time many dwarves were "homeless wanderers" and as a race had been through many hardships..... compassion of course will win through prejudice, especially amongst the wise

06-27-2002, 12:15 PM	#9
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	I agree with the point that this is a book much more intended for young children, who might find the idea of shades of loyalty and friendship between the "goodies" confusing. Also yes, it was the Sindar elves that had most cause to dislike dwarves. And let's not forget that Elrond had seen Men fighting for Sauron in his time yet still welcomed Men to Rivendell. And finally, the dwarves were indeed a dwindling remnant of their former selves, more so even than the elves. And their last major undertaking, the war with the orcs, no doubt earned them respect from even the most skeptical elf. So I suppose I'm agreeing with all the above! Oh and hi osszie, nice to meet a fellow Durham-er! __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

06-27-2002, 12:34 PM	#10
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	"Dwarves don't get on with them (elves). Even decent enough dwarves like Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very foolish thing to think), or get annoyed with them. For some elves tease them and laugh at them, and most of all at their beards". Think this sums up Tolkiens animosity in of the races in the hobbit very well. Of curse there is tension, but this being a story for children, he descibes it as such. Whey hey!!! The Durham lads are here!!!

06-27-2002, 03:53 PM	#11
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	Haway osszie man! Yep that sums it up very well I think. Almost worth a pint in the Hogshead! __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

06-27-2002, 04:16 PM	#12
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Well now. Thraindul (the Elven King) has a lot in common with Thingol. They both live in a cave, and lead "wood-elves" If I'm not mistaken, however, Thingol preceeded Thraindul in conceptualization, but not publishing. Thraindul's dislike of dwarves can probably be at least partly attributed to the fact that his predecessor (both conceptually and in the integrated history) was killed by dwarves. Furthermore dwarves from the cities in Ered Luin, which is coincidentally where Thorin and Co. went into exile after the loss of the Kingdom Under the Mountain. Rivendell on the otherhand, was founded after Sauron's near succesful attack during the second age, when he over ran Hollin. There were a lot of survivors from Hollin. You remember Hollin right? That elf kingdom where they were so freindly with the dwarves of the dwarrowdelf? Durin's people in fact, which coincidentally (again) Thorin happened to be the eldest heir of? Well well, isn't that odd how it all worked out? __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

06-27-2002, 06:35 PM	#13
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	__________________ I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris

06-29-2002, 04:57 PM	#14
SamwiseGamgeeOTS Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A quaint little hole which last time I checked was somewhere near Ohio, Middle-Earth. Posts: 165	Honestly, I think that Elrond was just trying to be nice. I don't think that Elrond was really that kind of elf. I think that he just wanted to make a statement maybe, that all elves are not the same. I mean, ya didn't see anyone saying that they didn't want to go there. In fact they were all happy to be on their way there. But, it was kind of set up as a children's story. Maybe to ease a newcommer into Middle Earth without addressing all it's problems' at once. __________________ "...Eragon recoiled in shock. Standing in front of him, licking off the membrane that encased it, was a dragon."

07-25-2002, 11:48 AM	#15
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	I think that Elrond welcomed the Dwarves because he knew what there quest was and he wanted to help them achieve it. In "The Quest of Eerebor" in Unfinished Tales, it talks about how Gandalf knew Sauron was rising again and he was worried about what would happen if Sauron met up with Smaug and stuff like that (sorry, I can't remember it exactly) and that's why he helped the Dwarves on their adventure to destroy Smaug. I think that was basiclly Elrond's goal also. __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

08-12-2002, 08:12 PM	#16
The Lady of Ithilien Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow. Posts: 357	Well, too, there were dwarves and then there were Dwarves -- Thorin was held to be king of Durin's folk, even in exile, and some of his companions (Ori, Nori and Dori certainly, and Balin, Dwalin, Óin and Glóin too, if I read the family tree in Appendix A of LOTR correctly) were also of the line of Durin. Elrond would be guilty of lese majesty (? spelling) if he gave them the cold shoulder, but as you pointed out, he wasn't that kind of elf anyway. But in any case Elrond showed Thorin a great honor by not making a fuss over Thorin's possession of Orcrist, a "famous blade" in Gondolin - as Turgon's great-grandson, Elrond could certainly have gotten pretty snitty over it. But he was wise, and "kind as summer," as Bilbo (I think) put it.

08-14-2002, 03:41 PM	#17
Nariel Starfire Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: La La Land Posts: 309	also, after The Hobbit, Balin and his folks went to Moria. They "delved too deep" as Saruman said. And between the Hobbit and Lotr, remember what they awoke "in the darkness of Khazadum." THe elves may have been a little ticked at them for that. ANd that may have stirred in their minds, refreshing their uncomfortable feelings regarding dwarves __________________ It is the failed skydiver who leaves an impression upon the earth. "But what about the R.O.U.Ses?" Yours Truly, The Tisroc -You forgot to say "May he live forever" -That's because I don't want him to live forever! - The Horse and his Boy--C.S. Lewis

08-14-2002, 04:14 PM	#18
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Err, the Dwarrowdelf succumbed to the Balrog long before the quest of Erebor. Reference the Battle of Azanulbizar, in which Dáin Ironfoot slays Azog on the steps of Moria, only to withdraw from the gate. He has seen the Balrog. The Balrog was awakened by the miners of Durin VI, who was probably killed by the Balrog (Durin's Bane) shortly thereafter. Since Durin VI died in 1980 of the Third age, it's probably safe to say the 'rog wasn't awakened by Balin's expidition. Though it might have been a little Irked by it. If any elves were upset by anyone awakening the Balrog, it would have been with Durin VI, who woke it up a nearly 1000 years before Balin's attempt at recolonization in 2989 __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 08-14-2002 at 04:16 PM.