If Feanor hadn't died what would have happned when Fingolfin's Hosts arrvived in ME?

afro-elf · 08-17-2002, 04:01 AM

If Feanor hadn't died what would have happned when Fingolfin's Hosts arrvived in ME?

Your thoughts on this?

UnStashable · 09-07-2002, 05:23 PM

I think It might have been intersting if Morgoth had captured Feanor Himself instead of Maedhros and Fingon or someone with Thorondor rescued him instead. I hvae a hunch however that it would have led to immidate and greater strife than there was.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 09-07-2002, 08:07 PM

Possibly another kinslaying.

Ñólendil · 09-08-2002, 02:57 AM

I'd like to think at least some of Feanor's Host would have defied their leader and repented of the burning of the ships, despite the ill-intent of Curufinwe. Maybe Feanor would have even quarreled with his own sons over it (or some of them). That would have been interesting.

Elvellon · 09-08-2002, 06:44 AM

Taking in consideration the mental state of Feanor at that time, anything could happen.
But I doubt he would have convinced all of his people, and indeed even all of his sons, to attack Fingolfin’s host. However what would have Fingolfin done if Feanor was still alive and in control when he reached Hithlum?
He might have confronted him personally, and I don’t doubt Feanor would have answered with steel. Fingolfin would probably won but no doubt war would irrupt among the Noldor afterwards .

On the other hand if Feanor were captured and Fingolfin saved him, things would be less certain. It would probably reconcile the brothers, but I doubt that he would recognise Fingolfin as high king of the Noldor, as Maedhros did. Probably he would simply ignore the claim of his brother and would not press his own, at least for a time.

BeardofPants · 09-08-2002, 07:25 AM

He would have appeared in Jerry Springer's "I want to kill my brother and have sex with his wife!" show.

Curufinwe · 09-14-2002, 10:53 PM

Feanor's emnity toward Fingolfin was limited compared to his lust for both the silmarils, and the enemy that stole them. Feanor would probably have seen that he needed allies to defeat the Morgoth and recover his prize creations, thus i think some reconciliation between them would have been likely, certainly a true Kinslaying seems highly unlikely, considering the only cause for the slaying at alqualonde was feanor's desire for the silmarills which the telerin ships would have served to facilitate. Fingolfin's host had nothing to aid feanor in such a quest, other than their valour in battle.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 09-15-2002, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Curufinwe
Feanor's emnity toward Fingolfin was limited compared to his lust for both the silmarils, and the enemy that stole them. Feanor would probably have seen that he needed allies to defeat the Morgoth and recover his prize creations, thus i think some reconciliation between them would have been likely, certainly a true Kinslaying seems highly unlikely, considering the only cause for the slaying at alqualonde was feanor's desire for the silmarills which the telerin ships would have served to facilitate. Fingolfin's host had nothing to aid feanor in such a quest, other than their valour in battle.

Not true. Feanor states himself, that he would only hold true to those that he deemed beneficial to his cause. When the major part of the Noldor were left to perish in Araman and Feanor crossed the Great Sea via the ships of the Teleri, Maedhros said "Now what ships will you send back, and who will they bear here first, Fingon the Valiant?" Feanor's answer was " None and none. What I have left behind, I now count as needless baggage on the road." There were three Silmarils that were stolen, and yes, Feanor needed allies, but Feanor was proud and he even proves in the end that he would have taken on Morgoth alone with no allies to get the Silmarils back. Feanor cared nothing for the Noldor, but for who would stand by him and serve his purpose.

Curufinwe · 09-17-2002, 02:22 AM

The question is a hypothetical one, what WOULD have happened IF Feanor had been alive when the greater part of the Noldor under Fingolfin arrived in Middle Earth. Feanor did leave behind the part of the Noldor that followed the second son of Finwe rather than the eldest son and heir to the kingship of the Noldor in Araman. But he did not leave them to "perish." Indeed how would they? They had a choice, return or brave the ice, they chose the dangerous rode and suffered - some few perished but it was the choice of Fingolfin not to return and seek the pardon of the valar. Feanor clearly considered Fingolfin's host to be traitors - and technically they were not following the rightful king of the Noldor. And as for feanor caring nothing for the Noldor i see little evidence, he was a flawed character, but no enemy of his people. I merely stated that in the true spirit of realpolitik feanor would have avoided conflict with Fingolfin's host who CERTAINLY held Morgoth to the be enemy, not the feanorians. The chance of a kinslaying is virtually nil. Consider the three slayings of elf by elf. All were perpetrated by the feanorians for the acquisition of the silmarils, the first for the ships to reach the enemy who held the silmarils, the second and third to reaquire the gems from the elves that held them. Did Fingolfin have the gems? Did his defeat lead feanor any closer to reaching them? No and No.

afro-elf · 03-03-2003, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
He would have appeared in Jerry Springer's "I want to kill my brother and have sex with his wife!" show.

after all this time I finally read this

BeardofPants · 03-03-2003, 01:18 AM

I think I may have been drunk when I wrote that.

Ruinel · 03-03-2003, 09:10 PM

It was a most dreadful deed that Feanor left Fingolfin's host on the shores after the Kinslaying at Alaqualonde. But I agree that Fingolfin was safe from the swords of Feanor and his sons. Even though Feanor never felt that the sons of Indis were truely his brothers (or so I feel when I read this story) and did not approve of his father marrying her, I do not think he was stupid. Rash and hot headed, yes, but stupid no. He would have used Fingolfin's host as allies against his true enemy. Perhaps, even repenting for leaving them on the shores while Feanor and his sons took the ships. If not with his full heart, perhaps for the purpose of obtaining Fingolfin's help.

Falagar · 03-04-2003, 04:11 PM

I agree that Fëanor wouldn't have slain his half-brothers (or mae an attempt). Sure, he was very proud, but the help Fingolfin and his host would have provided in the war against Morgoth would (IMHO) have convinced him to make an alliance, at leats for a while...
If he was alive today he would probably participated in JS-show, but in a program called "My mother left me, my father married another woman and was later killed, my new brothers are all bastards and Mandos doesn't like me!"

Maedhros · 03-04-2003, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Feanor clearly considered Fingolfin's host to be traitors - and technically they were not following the rightful king of the Noldor. And as for feanor caring nothing for the Noldor i see little evidence, he was a flawed character, but no enemy of his people.

I think that after reading the Shibboleth of Fëanor, one comes to see this a little differently. Even thought Fingolfin gave his word that he would follow Fëanor, he never resigned to his right to claim to the King of the Ñoldor. Fëanor in seeing this never trusted his half brother, so there was a reason for leaving him in the Wastes of Araman.

Ruinel · 03-04-2003, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
I think that after reading the Shibboleth of Fëanor, one comes to see this a little differently. Even thought Fingolfin gave his word that he would follow Fëanor, he never resigned to his right to claim to the King of the Ñoldor. Fëanor in seeing this never trusted his half brother, so there was a reason for leaving him in the Wastes of Araman.

I'm guessing here, but the Shibboleth of Feanor is in one of the HoME books?

Falagar · 03-05-2003, 11:13 AM

It's in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle Earth.

Ruinel · 03-05-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
It's in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle Earth.

Thank you... I have that book ordered and I'll be sure to read it.

Halbarad of the North · 03-26-2003, 11:46 PM

I'm guessing since Fingolfin was very temperate to Feanor before he would probaly forgive his half brother and Feanor, needing allies would grudingly allow him to join the war against Morgoth.

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-27-2003, 05:34 AM

Maybe the ACCIDENTAL burning of Amras in the ships would've humbled Feanor.

Anglorfin · 04-10-2003, 10:30 PM

It woulda hve been nice just to see Feanor live and actually have a real (fair) fight. But all in all Maedhros was the better leader between him and his father, so in any case Feanor's death was probably for the best.

08-17-2002, 04:01 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	If Feanor hadn't died what would have happned when Fingolfin's Hosts arrvived in ME? If Feanor hadn't died what would have happned when Fingolfin's Hosts arrvived in ME? Your thoughts on this? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

09-07-2002, 05:23 PM	#2
UnStashable Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 52	I think It might have been intersting if Morgoth had captured Feanor Himself instead of Maedhros and Fingon or someone with Thorondor rescued him instead. I hvae a hunch however that it would have led to immidate and greater strife than there was. __________________ This elevator only goes to the basement, and sombody made an awful mess down there

09-08-2002, 02:57 AM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I'd like to think at least some of Feanor's Host would have defied their leader and repented of the burning of the ships, despite the ill-intent of Curufinwe. Maybe Feanor would have even quarreled with his own sons over it (or some of them). That would have been interesting. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

09-08-2002, 06:44 AM	#5
Elvellon Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lindon Posts: 637	Taking in consideration the mental state of Feanor at that time, anything could happen. But I doubt he would have convinced all of his people, and indeed even all of his sons, to attack Fingolfin’s host. However what would have Fingolfin done if Feanor was still alive and in control when he reached Hithlum? He might have confronted him personally, and I don’t doubt Feanor would have answered with steel. Fingolfin would probably won but no doubt war would irrupt among the Noldor afterwards . On the other hand if Feanor were captured and Fingolfin saved him, things would be less certain. It would probably reconcile the brothers, but I doubt that he would recognise Fingolfin as high king of the Noldor, as Maedhros did. Probably he would simply ignore the claim of his brother and would not press his own, at least for a time. __________________ **************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion

09-08-2002, 07:25 AM	#6
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	He would have appeared in Jerry Springer's "I want to kill my brother and have sex with his wife!" show. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-07-2002, 08:07 PM	#3
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Possibly another kinslaying.

09-14-2002, 10:53 PM	#7
Curufinwe Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New England Posts: 59	Feanor's emnity toward Fingolfin was limited compared to his lust for both the silmarils, and the enemy that stole them. Feanor would probably have seen that he needed allies to defeat the Morgoth and recover his prize creations, thus i think some reconciliation between them would have been likely, certainly a true Kinslaying seems highly unlikely, considering the only cause for the slaying at alqualonde was feanor's desire for the silmarills which the telerin ships would have served to facilitate. Fingolfin's host had nothing to aid feanor in such a quest, other than their valour in battle.

09-17-2002, 02:22 AM	#9
Curufinwe Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New England Posts: 59	The question is a hypothetical one, what WOULD have happened IF Feanor had been alive when the greater part of the Noldor under Fingolfin arrived in Middle Earth. Feanor did leave behind the part of the Noldor that followed the second son of Finwe rather than the eldest son and heir to the kingship of the Noldor in Araman. But he did not leave them to "perish." Indeed how would they? They had a choice, return or brave the ice, they chose the dangerous rode and suffered - some few perished but it was the choice of Fingolfin not to return and seek the pardon of the valar. Feanor clearly considered Fingolfin's host to be traitors - and technically they were not following the rightful king of the Noldor. And as for feanor caring nothing for the Noldor i see little evidence, he was a flawed character, but no enemy of his people. I merely stated that in the true spirit of realpolitik feanor would have avoided conflict with Fingolfin's host who CERTAINLY held Morgoth to the be enemy, not the feanorians. The chance of a kinslaying is virtually nil. Consider the three slayings of elf by elf. All were perpetrated by the feanorians for the acquisition of the silmarils, the first for the ships to reach the enemy who held the silmarils, the second and third to reaquire the gems from the elves that held them. Did Fingolfin have the gems? Did his defeat lead feanor any closer to reaching them? No and No. Last edited by Curufinwe : 09-17-2002 at 02:55 PM.

03-03-2003, 01:18 AM	#11
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I think I may have been drunk when I wrote that. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

03-03-2003, 09:10 PM	#12
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	It was a most dreadful deed that Feanor left Fingolfin's host on the shores after the Kinslaying at Alaqualonde. But I agree that Fingolfin was safe from the swords of Feanor and his sons. Even though Feanor never felt that the sons of Indis were truely his brothers (or so I feel when I read this story) and did not approve of his father marrying her, I do not think he was stupid. Rash and hot headed, yes, but stupid no. He would have used Fingolfin's host as allies against his true enemy. Perhaps, even repenting for leaving them on the shores while Feanor and his sons took the ships. If not with his full heart, perhaps for the purpose of obtaining Fingolfin's help.

03-04-2003, 04:11 PM	#13
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I agree that Fëanor wouldn't have slain his half-brothers (or mae an attempt). Sure, he was very proud, but the help Fingolfin and his host would have provided in the war against Morgoth would (IMHO) have convinced him to make an alliance, at leats for a while... If he was alive today he would probably participated in JS-show, but in a program called "My mother left me, my father married another woman and was later killed, my new brothers are all bastards and Mandos doesn't like me!" __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

03-05-2003, 11:13 AM	#16
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	It's in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle Earth. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

03-26-2003, 11:46 PM	#18
Halbarad of the North Sapling Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 8	I'm guessing since Fingolfin was very temperate to Feanor before he would probaly forgive his half brother and Feanor, needing allies would grudingly allow him to join the war against Morgoth.

03-27-2003, 05:34 AM	#19
Inderjit Sanghera Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England. Posts: 260	Maybe the ACCIDENTAL burning of Amras in the ships would've humbled Feanor.

04-10-2003, 10:30 PM	#20
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	It woulda hve been nice just to see Feanor live and actually have a real (fair) fight. But all in all Maedhros was the better leader between him and his father, so in any case Feanor's death was probably for the best. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

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