Finrod, Sauron and the Ring

[afro-elf]

Sauron and Finrod duelled in a magic battle in the first age.

Sauron did win but it shows finrods strength.

If Finrod had faced Sauron with Elendil I think he may have survived the battle. Maybe Elendil too.

He probably would have had the strength to destroy the ring then.


However say the ring was lost and finrod was high king of the elves in the third age. Do you think he would have accompanied the fellowship like he did with Beren? I belive so.

He may have even had the strength to battle and beat sauron this time since he was ringless

Wow Finrod and Glorfindel together in the 3rd age

that's better than batman and robin

also I think that finrod would have been active in the late 3rd age than taken an more active fight against the weakned sauron.

[Sauron's Nagging Wife]

Well, Finrod abandoned his kingdom and went with Beren because of the life-debt he owed Barahir... but I tend to agree that he would have gone.

Finrod also seemed very fatalistic, he never married and told Galadriel that he would have nothing to leave an heir. I count him among the greatest of the Elves, and her certainly wasn't a hot-headed nut like the sons of Feanor. I wonder if it was because of the mixed blood: Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri.

Would he have survived hand-combat with Sauron? All we can do is conjecture, but if both Finrod and Fingolfin (my other favorite) fought, I think it might have happened.

[afro-elf]

An uncle/nephew tag team of Finrod and Fingolfin would have been AWESOME

I have great respect for Finrod, but Fingolfin is my favorite Calaquendi

My favorite Sindar is Mablung


and my favorite avari is my RPG character of course.

[Tar-Elendil]

If Finrod had faced Sauron with Elendil I think he may have survived the battle. Maybe Elendil too.

elendil coulda took sauron w/o his ring!
ive seen some of your posts about elendil..
you seem to doubt the power of the Númenoreans

[Sauron's Nagging Wife]

Both Finrod and Fingolfin were born in Aman and were thousands of years old. Even if you don't believe that the Noldor were far superior to all Mortals, even men of Numenor (I do), then you must admit that warriors with such a long life must have an advantage over a people who only live a century or two.

I don't think Elendil or any mortal could have defeated Sauron with or without his Ring, even with a Valinorian blade.



Afro-elf, my very naughty RP character knew Finrod rather well Although she never met Fingolfin, she laughed in glee when he hewed off the foot of that idiot, Melkor (didn't we all, though?)

[Tar-Elendil]

Originally posted by Sauron's Nagging Wife
Both Finrod and Fingolfin were born in Aman and were thousands of years old. Even if you don't believe that the Noldor were far superior to all Mortals, even men of Numenor (I do), then you must admit that warriors with such a long life must have an advantage over a people who only live a century or two.

I don't think Elendil or any mortal could have defeated Sauron with or without his Ring, even with a Valinorian blade.



Afro-elf, my very naughty RP character knew Finrod rather well Although she never met Fingolfin, she laughed in glee when he hewed off the foot of that idiot, Melkor (didn't we all, though?)

i seriously think elendil could have defeated sauron without his ring. he probably would have suffered deadly wounds but he still woulda took em down! aye, elves that were from Aman would obviously have power over Men and other Elves. i never said anything to the contrary. but when you say far superior i think you're goin a bit far. aye, superior but not to the extent you're thinking of. look at turin among the grey elves (yea i know grey elves arent the noldor). he was mightier in arms on the marches of doriath than all save beleg alone. and when you say "even a valinorean blade" u mean a blade from valinor, i assume. remember the noldor learned alot of weapon smithying from the Dwarves. a dwarf made narsil which cut the ring off sauron. nonetheless you are entitled to your opinion even if mine is different and you're wrong!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Elves and Men especially in the early ages of ME were similiar physically. The Elves of Aman were taller than Elves born in ME, and most Men, but their physical strengths were not really superior. Elves were more spiritual creatures and I would say superior in knowledge than Men.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Moving to the Silmarillion forum.

[Tar-Elendil]

read "Of Men" in the Silmarillion
notice that theyre not saying "Of Numenoreans" but men in general. it even says the elves of doriath come close to the noldor out of aman..turin was among the elves on the marches of doriath, read my earlier post. just imagine if turin was replaced by a numenorean who had went back in time somehow he would outfight and own all those elves, even beleg.

[afro-elf]

JRRT said that Sauron "had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days".


Hurin was said to have been the greatest human warrior ever, turin was his son. Genetics baby

Hurin would fell ANY other mortal.


and yes turin was among the grey elves so your comments there are extraneous since gil-galad/finrod were noldo kings

and any numemnorean would not whoop ALL those elves.


HOWEVER, i do like the numenoreans. Read some of the past post there are a few about the power of men and elves and this should put your thoughts to rest

[Tar-Elendil]

and any numemnorean would not whoop ALL those elves.

mebbe i shouldnt have used "any"..But the average numenorean would probably beat the sheot out of the average grey elf. Yes yes, getting way too into it, i know.

[Sauron's Nagging Wife]

Considering what Sauron did to Numenor singlehandedly without lifting a weapon, I would say they were a pretty sad bunch.

Anyway, whatever a motal man's skill in warfare, such strength is not enough to stand against a Ainu. Fingolfin was able to since he still had the fire of the Blessed Lands. If only poor Gil-galad had another great Elf Lord with him instead of one of those useless, fragile mortals, the outcome may have been different.

[Tar-Elendil]

Originally posted by Sauron's Nagging Wife
Considering what Sauron did to Numenor singlehandedly without lifting a weapon, I would say they were a pretty sad bunch.

Anyway, whatever a motal man's skill in warfare, such strength is not enough to stand against a Ainu. Fingolfin was able to since he still had the fire of the Blessed Lands. If only poor Gil-galad had another great Elf Lord with him instead of one of those useless, fragile mortals, the outcome may have been different.

you obviously havent read the silmarillion or any HoME books properly to make a statement like that. the faithful werent corrupted by sauron. and elves were too! why did they make the rings! theyw ere friends with sauron at the time! he learned much skill from them! and neways..ALOT of morgoths power had went out of him by creating orcs dragons and everything. THATS WHY FINGOLFIN GOT THE SHOTS OFF OF HIM THAT HE DID, IF HE HADNT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN OWNED. the Noldoli arent invincible. useless fragile mortals.. I suggest you read some more, then you can talk to me.

[Tar-Elendil]

sauron didnt corrupt some of the numenoreans singlehandedly either, he had the ring. when he came among the elves and won them over in middle-earth the 2nd age (although not all of the elves) he DIDNT HAVE THE RING. the faithful resisted him and he had the ring. it tells you something..once again read some more and then talk to me. Now i see why they call you sauron's nagging wife.

[Sauron's Nagging Wife]

The elves who made the rings weren't corrupted, they were fooled, but Gil-galad and Elrond weren't which is more than we can say for the Numenorian Kings.

Fingolfin at least stood toe to toe with that idiot Melkor that led my fair husband astray, and I admire that Noldo greatly.

Tar-Elendil, my lad, you must calm down. I don't care if you don't want to talk with me, but there is no reason to get so upset because I disagree with you. There's no need for shouting or personal attacks.

[Tar-Elendil]

The elves who made the rings weren't corrupted, they were fooled, but Gil-galad and Elrond weren't which is more than we can say for the Numenorian Kings.

look at my previous post..i said won them over. and numenorean kings? ha.. you mean numenorean KING
ar-pharazon. just becuz he could bend that king to his will doesnt mean he could have done it to all of them. ar-pharazon was just a bad seed. he siezed the scepter aftet the death of his uncle when it should have gone to his cousin.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's a much better tone there TE. I know she's Sauron's wife, but you still have to be nice to her.

[afro-elf]

Tar elendil maybe YOU should get your facts straight before attacking another mooter.

sauron didnt corrupt some of the numenoreans singlehandedly either, he had the ring. when he came among the elves and won them over in middle-earth the 2nd age (although not all of the elves) he DIDNT HAVE THE RING. the faithful resisted him and he had the ring.

Sauron came in a fair guise to the elves. ( this will come into play below)

And he learned from them. That should tell you something of the power of the noldo. Also at that time how many were left that were calaquendi vs noldo. celembrior was noldo but not calaquendi and he still had the power to create the rings on his own.


The Faithful of Numenor were a minority. The general populace of Andor turned from the light many years past. It was in SA 1800 that the shadow 1st falls on numenor

when sauron was taken to numenor in sa 3262 almost 1500 years after the shadow fall on numenor he came as Sauron the dark lord, NOT in the fair guise as annatar the gift giver


.

look at my previous post..i said won them over. and numenorean kings? ha.. you mean numenorean KING

it is also said the he seduces the king (singular) AND he corrupts the numenoreans ( plural)

sauron as the dark lord revealed seduce no elven king nor did he corrupt any elven nation.


only the handful of the numenoreans tainted and THEY were allied with the elves

[Cirdan]

Nice smack-down, AE. The Numenoreans were on the way down before sauron arrived. He was fearful of them prior, and was not willing to take on both them and the elves in force. He came in his visage but his verbal skills were said to have helped in "turning up the heat" on the numenorians lust for immortality. This is why Isildur was such a critical character; his family's defection saved the faithful remnants and built the culture that would ultimately save middle earth. Sure, the Numenoreans built a few coastal cities, but they were not willing to really challege the mainland forces of anyone. The irony was that the numenorean's alliance with sauron was his first major downfall and the loss of him physical form. It was strange to read that part of the silmarillion, knowing he survived. (i'm evil but i can't swim) I really liked the rise and fall of the numenoreans as a story. It was more like human cultures and empires. It was strange that they thought that 400 years wasn't long enough. They had contact with mortal men so on the scale they should have felt they were doing relatively well. Too bad Tolkien didn't live 400 years so we could get the whole story

[Ñólendil]

If Finrod had faced Sauron with Elendil I think he may have survived the battle. Maybe Elendil too.

Because of the One Ring, or especially because of the One Ring, Sauron was far more powerful when he fought Elendil and Gil-galad than when he battled with Finrod in songs of power. In fact Tolkien said that Sauron was more powerful at the end of the Second Age, "effectively", than Morgoth was at the end of the First. So I don't know. In any case somehow Sauron was slain, though my memory is hazy about just how it happened.

I have great respect for Finrod, but Fingolfin is my favorite Calaquendi

My favorite Sindar is Mablung

and my favorite avari is my RPG character of course.

Calaquendë, Sinda and Avar, Denzel. You know I have to nit-pick.

Both Finrod and Fingolfin were born in Aman and were thousands of years old. Even if you don't believe that the Noldor were far superior to all Mortals, even men of Numenor (I do),

How can anyone be superior to someone else?

But the average numenorean would probably beat the sheot out of the average grey elf. Yes yes, getting way too into it, i know.

Ah, the average Númenorean was not a warrior.

Considering what Sauron did to Numenor singlehandedly without lifting a weapon, I would say they were a pretty sad bunch.

When you think Sauron, think Beelzebub. And when you think of what he accomplished in Númenor (which had already fallen, really, for the most part), do not forget what he accomplished in Eregion.

Anyway, whatever a motal man's skill in warfare, such strength is not enough to stand against a Ainu. Fingolfin was able to since he still had the fire of the Blessed Lands.

But don't forget Morgoth was greatly decreased in strength, he was no longer great among the Powers, in fact was he least among the powers, and many Maiar were above him in affective power. By himself in a physical fight, Morgoth just didn't measure up to the other Valar or many of the Maiar. I have no doubt that Húrin could have done what Fingolfin did.

ALOT of morgoths power had went out of him by creating orcs dragons and everything.

He didn't create them. He made them, which is different. I don't think it was in the making alone that his power was spent. It was whenever he put part of himself into his makings, his spirit, his malice and all that.

sauron didnt corrupt some of the numenoreans singlehandedly either, he had the ring. when he came among the elves and won them over in middle-earth the 2nd age (although not all of the elves) he DIDNT HAVE THE RING. the faithful resisted him and he had the ring. it tells you something..once again read some more and then talk to me. Now i see why they call you sauron's nagging wife.

You're not being very nice. I don't think the Ring had much to do with what he did on Elenna. It's never really brought up in the Akallabeth. On the other hand the Akallabeth was written by Elendil, who didn't know about the Ring. The Ring increased Sauron's power, I'll give you that, but I don't think it really aided him in corrupting the Númenoreans.

The elves who made the rings weren't corrupted, they were fooled, but Gil-galad and Elrond weren't which is more than we can say for the Numenorian Kings.

There are several places in the Tolkien Letters where Tolkien talks about the chief flaws of the Elves. He's always mentioning their wrong desire to hold back Time, to have their cake without eating it (or something like that). He's always mentioning the Elves of Eregion (especially the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain) when he brings this up. It was definitely a sort of Fall. They went to extreme measures to achieve something they shouldn't have been trying to achieve, and for the wrong reasons. So it wasn't just that they were fooled. Sauron taught them and helped them out in achieving something that was wrong, which they were already working at or desiring.

Sorry to be abit redundant, some of these points have been covered.