just a dumb question....

[ArwenEvenstar]

In the sil Glorfindel died while fighting a balrog and later in LOTR he rescues Frodo & Co. I know he came back to life, but how exactly. I don't own a copy of the Sil and I don't remember which of the Valar were in charge of the Halls of the dead..... So could one of the smarter people please explain how that happened to a STUPID
person.

[Captain Stern]

When elves die their spirit/'fea' enter The Halls of Mandos ( The keeper of the Halls of Mandos is called 'Namo', but mostly everyone calls him 'Mandos' ) where they must stay for a certain period of time depending on how good they were in their lifetime. For example Finrod Felagund the brother of Galadriel stayed there a relatively short period because of the good deeds he performed while he was still 'alive', whereas Feanor, the leader of the Rebellion of the Noldor and the creator of the Silmarills still waits in The Halls of Mandos because of all the wicked things he did when he was 'alive'.

After they have served their 'sentence' they are given another body/'croa' ( I think that's the name? ) and are returned to the world of the living. Whether they go through childhood again or are returned as adults once more I don't know, I think the latter is true but I could be wrong.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by ArwenEvenstar
In the sil Glorfindel died while fighting a balrog and later in LOTR he rescues Frodo & Co. I know he came back to life, but how exactly. I don't own a copy of the Sil and I don't remember which of the Valar were in charge of the Halls of the dead..... So could one of the smarter people please explain how that happened to a STUPID
person.

Not a problem Arwen. It is not stupid. My explanation may not be as detailed and as good as some others may be able to explain, but I'll give it a shot.

When an Elf died in Middle-earth his spirit went to the Halls of Awaiting where he was judged by Mandos. Depending on how good he was and his deeds in life would determine how long he would remain with Mandos. Once he is given leave to go, his body is restored whole to him and he may return to Valinor, but not to Middle-earth. Glorfindel is the only Elf to ever return to Middle-earth after he is reembodied. And folks, I don't think this is the same as Luthien's return. Anyway that is my explanation for what it's worth. Inoldonil could probably explain better.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Captain Stern beat me to it. We must have posted at the same time. I believe it is hroa (body), and I think they do return as adults, picking up where they were in age at the time of their deaths.

[ringbearer]

Captain Stern wrote...

Whether they go through childhood again or are returned as adults once more I don't know, I think the latter is true but I could be wrong.

This brings up a new question for me...elf children? I don't recall reading anything about them, did they hide the children, until they were mature...were they all in day-care, or what?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by ringbearer
Captain Stern wrote...


This brings up a new question for me...elf children? I don't recall reading anything about them, did they hide the children, until they were mature...were they all in day-care, or what?

There were elf children mentioned. Elros and Elrond were but small children when Maglor fostered them. Then there were the two children of Dior's I believe that were lost in the woods and never found. They were but little fellows.

[Comic Book Guy]

This brings up an interesting point, how long does it take for elves to be considered and adult and physically grow into one? I know Legolas was around 400 years old and he was still considered young but he still called Aragorn and Gimli children.

My only guess is that the physical growth for Elven children was the same for the second born, but still would be considered infants at the ages of 1-18.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
This brings up an interesting point, how long does it take for elves to be considered and adult and physically grow into one? I know Legolas was around 400 years old and he was still considered young but he still called Aragorn and Gimli children.

My only guess is that the physical growth for Elven children was the same for the second born, but still would be considered infants at the ages of 1-18.

I believe it explains this in one of the Vol. of the HoMe, but I am not sure which one. From what I understand though, Elves were not fully mature until they reach 100. As children they grew much slower physicaly, but matured much faster mentaly. So, it would be like if a Human child and an Elven child were both born at the same time, the Human child would grow old and die before the Elven child had even reached maturity. 100 hundred years for Humans was 1 year for Elves or something like that.

You are right about what Legolas says to Aragorn and Gimli, but I think he was more around the 900 mark. As far as I know there is no text that states Legolas' exact age though.

[Comic Book Guy]

Did he not say he'd seen a certain number of autumns, something to do with the leaves falling?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
Did he not say he'd seen a certain number of autumns, something to do with the leaves falling?

You know, you are probably right. I just don't recall. It has been awhile since I read LOTRs, but I do know that it does not specifically state his age anywhere. So we just have to go by bits and pieces of information that Tolkien gives us. We will never know his exact age.

[Tessar]

well if your looking for a young elf look no further! im right here (well actuly im an elf in the RPG but in the rpg im only 12 in human years) so what do/did young elves like me do? WE SURF THE INTER NET! heehehe and we go to lots of message bords and chat rooms, and we stargaze and we rpg!

well that awsers your questin i guess.

[Miriel Stormrider]

Wow. I had always assumed they were two different Glorfindels.

[Captain Stern]

I remember seeing an explanation of how elves aged in the Michael Martinez essay: 'Elves by the Numbers', here's the link:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/54681


Here's the part relevant to this thread:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" Tolkien wrote that Elven children resembled mortal children for the first few years of their lives, but that by the time mortal children reached their full stature the Elven children still looked like they were about seven years old. This essay establishes that Elven children matured at a much slower rate than mortal children, and reached adulthood no earlier than their fiftieth year (though sometimes they continued growing until their one hundredth year).

Furthermore, "Laws and Customs" says that most of the Eldar married soon after their fiftieth year, and they would (in times of peace, at least) soon begin bearing children. But the Elves spaced their children some years apart. This practice allowed the parents to spend several years focusing on each child's needs.

And we can be sure (because of his comparison between Elven children and mortal children) that Tolkien was anachronistically speaking in terms of Years of the Sun, not Years of the Trees. This is important to understand because "Annals of Aman", which provides a calendar system for dating events, is given in Years of the Trees. Morgoth's Ring provides us with two conversion rates for equating Years of the Trees with Years of the Sun.

I prefer to use the older ratio of 9.58 Years of the Sun to 1 Year of the Trees because the later ratio of 144 Years of the Sun to 1 Year of the Trees is very inconsistent with many texts. The fact that it coincides with the Yen described in the appendices to The Lord of the Rings probably means only that Tolkien wasn't considering the other texts, then unpublished, because he was in the process of revising the entire (unpublished) mythology.

Finally, "Laws and Customs" also says:


The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year. They had few children, but these were very dear to them. Their families, or houses, were held together by love and a deep feeling for kinship in mind and body; and the children needed little governing or teaching. There were seldom more than four children in any house, and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in days of old, while the Eldar were still few and eager to increase their kind, Feanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record none that surpassed him.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Miriel Stormrider
Wow. I had always assumed they were two different Glorfindels.

Nope. They are one in the same. But, there have been many debates about this, particuliarly because of Glorfindel's name. Many think that he is the same because they believe that Tolkien says that Elves do not reuse their names. Michael Martinez has written about this saying that it was just that Glorfindel was such a striking name, that it would not be reused, but Elves did in fact reuse their names with this exception.

[Ñólendil]

There need be no argument, the bit about Elves not using the same names as another Elf of importance is an argument of Tolkien's. He decided the 'two' Glorfindels were one and the same during the last four years of his life. Glorfindel died fighting the Balrog, he went to Mandos, was judged, his body was remade (Tolkien had decided against rebirth) and he lived in Aman for a while until the Year of Dread (S.A. 1600) when he returned to Middle-earth to help the Free Peoples. You can read about this in Vol. XII of the History of Middle-earth: The Peoples of Middle-earth; Late Writings, Last Writings, Glorfindel. There's lots of jewels in that book.

[Comic Book Guy]

I found the quote which i was refering to, and I see it has no real relevence to his age, but I was right about the 'Red Leaves' of Autumn.

'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then,' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.'

Pity it didn't say 'me' instead of 'us'

[ArwenEvenstar]

another question was his *fea* sent over the western sea and then rebuilt his body....(that's the best i can describe it) or was he born again like a baby Elf? (if baby Elves were every really "born")

[Ñólendil]

Tolkien twice decided against Elvish rebirth. Glorfindel's body was made anew, as it had been before it was broken.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by ArwenEvenstar
another question was his *fea* sent over the western sea and then rebuilt his body....(that's the best i can describe it) or was he born again like a baby Elf? (if baby Elves were every really "born")

I think that Elves are only babies once. If they die, when they are released from Mandos their bodies are restored to them whole as they were before their death.

[Captain Stern]

Makes sense.