Eru/Fate

[durinsbane2244]

weeeeeeeelll....who do you think sauron represents? i think that as Melkor is clearly Satan, Sauron is the Anti-Christ...Gandalf, of course, being Jesus...

[jammi567]

I don't so much see him as an anti-christ, at least not in the sil, but as a fallen angel because he originally worked for the good side, working for Aule. same with saruman in the third age. i like your idea of Gandalf being Jesus. sacrificing himself in all knowledge, probally, that he would be killed. 12, at least, *deciples* thinking him dead and moarning him in their own way (rest of fellowship, Elrond, Galadriel, Faramir, and Glorfindal. i know there are probally others, but those were the only ones i could think of, and of course keeping within the limits), and then coming back more powerful and wonderful then he was before.

note: i'm not religious in any way.

[durinsbane2244]

yes, gandalf has often been compared to Christ, and when i made the Anti-Christ comment, i had only the LotR in mind...hm...taking into light the Sil, perhaps he is a high-ranking demon...Mephistopheles? maybe Beelzebub...

[jammi567]

gandalf a demon.

[durinsbane2244]

no!!! sauron a demon!!!

[Landroval]

Gandalf, of course, being Jesus

I think the professor would disagree with you:

Originally Posted by Letter #181

Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees.

[durinsbane2244]

i didn't say he DIRECTLY or INTENTIONATLY made gandy Jesus, buuuut....

[jammi567]

phew! anything else?

[durinsbane2244]

hm...how about elvis REALLY being an alien and appearing as Manwe, the King? dunno...*thinks hard*...i'll come back with one...don't you worry...

[Arien the Maia]

I had read somewhere that EArandil is considered by some to be a sort of "Christ". any opinions? He did, after all, come on behalf of BOTH races...as Christ did being both God and human.

[Landroval]

It does reffer to a divine messenger, but apparently not to Chris; in Notion Club Papers, HoME IX, we find this footnote:

Its earliest recorded A-S form is earendil (oer-), later earendel, eorendel. Mostly in glosses on jubar = leoma; also on aurora. But also in Blickling Homilies, “se niwa eorendel” applied to St John the Baptist; and most notably Crist, eala! earendel engla beorhtast ofer middangeard monnum sended. Often supposed to refer to Christ (or Mary), but comparison with Blickling Homilies suggests that it refers to the Baptist. The lines refer to a herald, and divine messenger, clearly not the sodfaesta sunnan leoma = Christ. The last words of this note refer to the following lines in the poem Crist: '... and true radiance of the sun, bright above the stars - thou of thy very self illuminest for ever every season.'

The Blickling Homilies are a collection of Old English sermons preserved in a manuscript at Blickling Hall in Norfolk.

Edit: furthermore:

Originally Posted by Letter #297

The use of earendel in A-S Christian symbolism as the herald of the rise of the true Sun in Christ is completely alien to my use. The Fall of Man is in the past and off stage; the Redemption of Man in the far future. We are in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered in (unspoken) prayer by those of Numenorean descent.

[jammi567]

i have never read the Norton Club Papers because i find them too boring.

[durinsbane2244]

so maybe earendil is like...some kind of...prophet? or priest?

[Landroval]

In letter #142, Tolkien states that "...I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." So the priest label would not directly fit anyone.
Concerning prophecies, Earendil fulfilled them, as a divine messenger; I am not aware he made any.

Originally Posted by Of the severance of marriage, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X

When he that shall be called Earendil setteth foot upon the shores of Aman, ye shall remember my words. In that hour ye will not say that the Statute of Justice hath borne fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall come ye shall weigh in the balance, and they shall not seem too heavy compared with the rising of the light when Valinor groweth dim

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin, Unfinished Tales

(Ulmo to Tuor) But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness

Originally Posted by The names of Finwe's descendants, Late writings, HoME XII

Earendil had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamire. In this case both names were 'prophetic'. Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'. More purely prophetic was the name Ardamire 'Jewel of the World'; for Itarilde could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession of Earendil, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle- earth.

[durinsbane2244]

i didn't mean prophet so much as him prophesizing[sp?] so much as just being an ambassador between gods and men...which he does...

[Landroval]

Well, of all the ambasadors, he succeeded even where Ulmo 'failed'.

[durinsbane2244]

true...which is why i think he was a special "ambassador"...

[jammi567]

ok, we all know that he is an ambassador for both the Noldor of Beleriand and Men, and that he managed to do his job because of the fall of Gondolin. Well, what if Eol had managed to kill Maeglin, and so he wasn't there to cause it's fall. Would Earendil have still been able to fill his role, but just done different, or would it have been done by someone else by some other way?

[durinsbane2244]

i think he would have no reason to go to the Valar and thus wouldn't, and would either go when he needed to or, if he was old or dead, someone else would.

[jammi567]

if someone else had to do the task, who would you pick, who was alive at the time earendil had to do it. i would chose either Maedhros or Maglor because although they took the Oath willingly, they really seemed to repent it, especially in the later years. So this would be a really good chance to repent the fact that they ever took an oath, and the effects that's it's caused.