What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

You forget the ring. I don't think he got older in appearance between the party and the departure...or at least not much.

Not older but fatter.

Looking in a mirror he was startled to see a much thinner reflection of himself than he remembered: it looked remarkably like the young nephew of Bilbo who used to go tramping with his uncle in the Shire; but the eyes looked out at him thoughtfully.-Many Meetings

But ...Frodo - static? Here is one guy who has changed from a cheerful careless hobbit into something in-between Gollum, a Ringwraith and a saint... One guy who has become so out-of-tune in the old Shire that he had to go heal in the Undying lands...Are you serious?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Not older but fatter.


But ...Frodo - static? Here is one guy who has changed from a cheerful careless hobbit into something in-between Gollum, a Ringwraith and a saint... One guy who has become so out-of-tune in the old Shire that he had to go heal in the Undying lands...Are you serious?

Absolutely. I think Frodo is always kind of saintly and dull. It's the younger hobbits who grow up. Frodo's a "good boy."

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Absolutely. I think Frodo is always kind of saintly and dull. It's the younger hobbits who grow up. Frodo's a "good boy."

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you have to back it up with something from the book.

In the movie - yes, Frodo is a sissy and a dull sissy throughout.

In the book Saruman (a good judge of characters I think) comments:

Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. "You have grown, Halfling," he said. "Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. You have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell."

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you have to back it up with something from the book.

In the movie - yes, Frodo is a sissy and a dull sissy throughout.

In the book Saruman (a good judge of characters I think) comments:

If Saruman was a good judge of character, he would have won.

Frodo: As master of Bag End, Frodo felt it his painful duty to say goodbye to the guests. Rumours of strange events had by now spread all over the field, but Frodo would only say no doubt everything will be cleared up in the morning.Fellowship pg 63.

Name one fun thing Frodo ever did. Even the "hey diddle diddle" business starts with "Frodo was annoyed." Fellowship pg 215

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

IFrodo: As master of Bag End, Frodo felt it his painful duty to say goodbye to the guests. Rumours of strange events had by now spread all over the field, but Frodo would only say no doubt everything will be cleared up in the morning.Fellowship pg 63.

Even the "hey diddle diddle" business starts with "Frodo was annoyed." Fellowship pg 215

and ends with "It was now Frodo's turn to feel pleased with himself. He capered about on the table; and when he came a second time to the cow jumped over the Moon, he leaped in the air."

And do you think that Pippin wouldn't be compelled to say goodbye to the guests if HE became the Master of Bag-End? One has obligations, after all.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gordis

He was not much different from other respectable hobbits – only a bit more given to reflection and wandering alone. But - while he was young, he used to steal Maggot’s mushrooms. Not Pippin and Merry (as in the films), but Frodo. In the books Merry, for instance, was no less responsible than Frodo, and Sam was doubly and triply so.

And was it being responsible behaving like this?

And that was already after he learned that he and his ring were wanted by Sauron!

And that’s what they were doing on the eve of the departure:


Not to mention FRODO’s song in the Pony and HIS table-dancing.

(By the way that’s why I blame the films – after seeing PJ’s stuff, people tend to forget the facts from the books.)


He may not have known Frodo, but he knew other hobbits:

Are you saying, "as a young man, he stole produce, and as an adult, he raised a glass with friends"? That doesn't even rate "Tookish." He's glum. And no fun.

Saruman was a very poor judge of character, starting with misjudging the White Council.

Originally Posted by Gordis

and ends with "It was now Frodo's turn to feel pleased with himself. He capered about on the table; and when he came a second time to the cow jumped over the Moon, he leaped in the air."

And do you think that Pippin wouldn't be compelled to say goodbye to the guests if HE became the Master of Bag-End? One has obligations, after all.

Frodo has nothing but obligations. He's a drudge. And that's not PJ's fault, it's Tolkien's. You probably don't know much about how actors work, but the key is making bold choices. Tolkien's version of Frodo has darn few of those available.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Are you saying, "as a young man, he stole produce, and as an adult, he raised a glass with friends"? That doesn't even rate "Tookish." He's glum. And no fun.

Then who of the hobbits is fun - according to you? Ted? Lotho? Sam? Merry? Pippin? And what fun things did any of them ever made?

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Saruman was a very poor judge of character, starting with misjudging the White Council.

He has judged them and fooled them ALL well enough, including the oh-so-wise Gandy.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Frodo has nothing but obligations. He's a drudge. And that's not PJ's fault, it's Tolkien's. You probably don't know much about how actors work, but the key is making bold choices. Tolkien's version of Frodo has darn few of those available.

And PJ's versoin of Frodo has none available whatsoever - a perpetual close-up on Frodo's frightened tearful eyes. All his moments of glory he had in the books were denied him.

By the way, Earniel - I think this discussion - starting with this post:

I think Tolkien's Frodo is kind of a straw man. That's not unusual for a writer of JRR's academic background.... etc

would fare much better in LOTR Books forum. After all, we are discussing Tolkien's Frodo -whether he was a flat and dull character. As for PJ's Frodo he doesn't even deserve a discussion, IMO.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Absolutely. I think Frodo is always kind of saintly and dull. It's the younger hobbits who grow up. Frodo's a "good boy."

I'd have to agree. While Tolkien tries to paint him as changed, he's really different from your average hobbit from day one. Maybe a result of having lost his parents at such a young age, which would seem to be extremely uncommon among hobbits.

He's always been more the responsible type than the carefree. I suppose he has a few carefree moments, like in Bree but, in general, his personality is pretty set to begin with.

As far as Saruman's comments go, he never even met Frodo until the scouring, so how would he know how much Frodo had changed?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

As far as Saruman's comments go, he never even met Frodo until the scouring, so how would he know how much Frodo had changed?

And, as far as that goes, was Frodo actually motivated by malice, as Saruman says? I don't think so.

[Gordis]

He's always been more the responsible type than the carefree. I suppose he has a few carefree moments, like in Bree but, in general, his personality is pretty set to begin with.

He was not much different from other respectable hobbits – only a bit more given to reflection and wandering alone. But - while he was young, he used to steal Maggot’s mushrooms. Not Pippin and Merry (as in the films), but Frodo. In the books Merry, for instance, was no less responsible than Frodo, and Sam was doubly and triply so.

And was it being responsible behaving like this?

‘You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,’ said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go. […]To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now that it had come to the point. Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of his last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season.

And that was already after he learned that he and his ring were wanted by Sauron!

And that’s what they were doing on the eve of the departure:

”‘Whatever happens to the rest of my stuff, when the Sackville--Bbagginses get their claws on it, at any rate I have found a good home for this!” said Frodo, as he drained his glass. It was the last drop of Old Winyards.
When they had sung many songs, and talked of many things they had done together, they toasted Bilbo’s birthday, and they drank his health and Frodo’s together according to Frodo’s custom. Then they went out for a sniff of air, and glimpse of the stars, and then they went to bed. Frodo’s party was over, and Gandalf had not come.”

Not to mention FRODO’s song in the Pony and HIS table-dancing.

(By the way that’s why I blame the films – after seeing PJ’s stuff, people tend to forget the facts from the books.)

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

As far as Saruman's comments go, he never even met Frodo until the scouring, so how would he know how much Frodo had changed?

He may not have known Frodo, but he knew other hobbits:

Seeing then that Gandalf thought the Shire worth visiting, Saruman himself visited it, but disguised and in the utmost secrecy, until he had explored and noted all its ways and lands, and thought then he had learned all that there was to know of it. And even when it seemed to him no longer wise nor profitable to go thither, he still had spies and servants that went in or kept an eye upon its borders. – UT, Hunt for the Ring

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Gordis

He may not have known Frodo, but he knew other hobbits:

That's kind of a stretch!

My point was that Saruman did not know Frodo, who was not a typical hobbit to begin with.

I'm not saying that Frodo didn't change a bit, but compared to many other charaters, his change was quite small. Many others "lost their innocence", so to speak. I think Frodo did long before the books when he lost his parents.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

My point was that Saruman did not know Frodo, who was not a typical hobbit to begin with.

I'm not saying that Frodo didn't change a bit, but compared to many other charaters, his change was quite small. Many others "lost their innocence", so to speak. I think Frodo did long before the books when he lost his parents.

He was typical enough to start with. After being adopted by Bilbo he has changed a bit, became more educated and clever than an average hobbit, read Bilbo's books, learned Elvish, that's why Gandalf has liked him so much.

But real character changes started with the Quest and the terrible responsbility it has entailed. He was innocent enough at the beginning, but by the time of Weathertop he was another hobbit entirely. And after his Morgul wound, he got features of a wraith on one hand and a saint on the other. And then he was slowly acquiring features of a wannabe Ringlord ...and Gollum. At the Cracks he was hardly human at all. And after the quest he was broken, unable to cope without the Ring, unable to adapt to the Shire again.

[brownjenkins]

Maybe. But I can't see how losing both your parents so young, in a society where death is probably quite rare at a younger age, could not effect you in a sobering way.