Test for Public Unions: Wisconsin

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Besides - in Wisconsin, the governor is doing what he promised to do. His opponents are rallying at the statehouse against him (including out-of-staters - and doctors filling out sick forms - where's the medical ethics?), and the media flocks to cover it. But around the state, people are still as supportive of him as before. You might talk about his financial backers, but he was elected by the people of the state - and ultimately is responsible to them.

He was elected in large part due to the exposure the Koch's money gave him including heavy handed commercials and web pages created through "grass roots" organizations bank rolled by the Kochs... Frankly Im horrified by the prospect of our democracy being completely hijacked (more than it has been) by corporations because the supreme court says they are people and can "express opinions" (until you want to sue them) by bankrolling "grass roots" organizations and making up lies and putting them in commercials they pay for because it helps their profits. And if you ask the people of Wisconsin (which several polls have been doing lately) you find enormous opposition to his insistence that collective bargaining be scrapped. Like 2/3rd to 1/3rd and increasing. A closer majority have said they side with the unions and the democrats on the entire issue. There has even been talk of a recall (not sure how since hes only been in office for a few months). So no he doesnt seem to be representing the people at all. Unless we qualify the definition of people by how much money they have available to them.

And remember too - that this is not a thing about any and all unions. It's strictly involving public unions. Those who can sit down at a table making demands - that the other side can meet by simply raising taxes. And the unions are not being disbanded - they're being asked to give back some of what they had previously negotiated for themselves.

The unions have agreed to ALL his demands (salary, health care, pensions, etc.) EXCEPT scrapping collective bargaining. But he hasnt even responded to them. He doesnt seem interested in dialog at all. He reminds me of an assassin with a brief window of opportunity to kill a hated target. Not a political representative trying to work things out with other representatives for the best of the people. And The People are NOT just billionaires and tea partyers. The People are the tens of thousands of state employees who make a whole lot less than the Kochs do. The People are teachers who drive late model cars and struggle to pay their mortgages and put their kids through college. He is acting like we are talking about spoiled overpaid athletes and movie stars not dog catchers and firemen. I mean this is the middle class we are attacking as undeserving of what they get. Not the rich. Where is the fairness in this? Why in the world wouldnt you seek consistency from top to bottom if you are in such a crisis?

As for Illinois, I agree its as short sighted to ONLY increase taxes as it is to ONLY cut spending. If things are so bad then we should be doing both. But we shouldnt increase taxes too much too quickly or it will hurt the economy and we shouldnt cut too close to the bone for the same reason. Can we all agree on that? The concept of cutting 700,000 jobs while handing tax breaks to the rich at a time when job generation is just starting to kick in is ludicrous.

[Insidious Rex]

So funny... and so accurate.

[GrayMouser]

It's a little funny how all the people who opposed Obama and the Democrats and who cheered the Republican minority in the Senate for obstructing their agenda are now going on about how "elections have consequences" and "the people voted for his ideas" If the rues of the US Senate applied to the Wisconsin Senate the Dems could have simply killed the whole thing by filibuster.

And vice versa, of course- all the good Democrats outraged by a minority blocking the will of the people in Washington D.C. are now out there shouting "run baby run".

The talk of recall is against state senators who were elected by a narrow margin- all the Democrats have to do is overturn three of those- or intimidate the incumbents by threat of recall

He is acting like we are talking about spoiled overpaid athletes and movie stars not dog catchers and firemen.

.

Not firemen. Firefighters and police are not included, even though they have the sweetest and most expensive contracts.

1) They are generally more popular than other public employees (except teachers) It's an attempt to demonize "those lazy lardasses at the DMV who took 20 minutes to renew my license"

2) They are more right-wing and as equally likely to support Republicans as Democrats- I think their endorsements were split in the last election.

3) They got guns

[Insidious Rex]

They excluded them in terms of immediate salary cuts and pension cuts and all that but if you scrap collective bargaining that would effect everyone wouldnt it? Unless the firefighters have a different union. Thats why youve seen so many firefighters joining the picketers. I doubt its ONLY about solidarity. Also slightly humorous when Walker ordered the cops to go out and find the runaway legislates and arrest them, the police initially replied: NO

[Rían]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Not firemen. Firefighters and police are not included, even though they have the sweetest and most expensive contracts.

Weeeeellllll, I'm not too bad with that. Any job where dying in the line of duty is a very real possibility most days (while saving citizens and property, too) should have some good benefits.

It's an attempt to demonize "those lazy lardasses at the DMV who took 20 minutes to renew my license"

only 20 minutes? That's a world record in efficiency!

[brownjenkins]

The devil is in the details... just one of many collective bargaining points he wants to remove is the ability to debate class size. Imagine cutting costs by changing the student to teach ratio from 20 to 1 to 40 to 1.

If he had any balls he'd do what they did in Rhode Island and just lay off and rehire all the government workers at more reasonable terms. The power is in his hands, but he'd just rather take the easy route of avoiding point by point confrontation.

[Insidious Rex]

Well they forced through a vote by taking money language out of the bill. They ignored a statute that calls for 24-hour notice for public meetings and held a hurried quick vote among only republicans which passed 18-1. A lot of people are really ticked. Some say what they did is illegal or at best "political thuggery in its worst form." Will be interesting to see what happens next. The democrats will certainly try to find a way to block the bill if they can and support for mass recalls are developing in earnest.

[inked]

Oh, the pain and the agony are just beginning and not just for WI.

[Insidious Rex]

So now Scott "Napoleon" Fitzgerald has unilaterally decided that none of the votes of the senate democrats will count until he chooses to rescind the order declaring the democrats in contempt. This has been widely panned as extremely undemocratic (trying hard not to throw around the term "fascist" like the tea partiers like to do...) and possibly illegal. Apparently stripping democratic supporters of their ability to bargain wasnt enough of an attack on democracy. Now he alone will decide who gets to vote and who doesnt. And he has decided ONLY republicans get to vote. And the MILLIONS of Wisconsinites represented by democratic legislators will no longer have a voice so says Fitzgerald.

Honestly, can you republicans/tea partiers still really be supporting this guy and his extremist actions and then turn around and complain that Obama is a fascist and is against the Constitution? The hypocrisy is colossal...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

:
:
As for Illinois, I agree its as short sighted to ONLY increase taxes as it is to ONLY cut spending. If things are so bad then we should be doing both. But we shouldnt increase taxes too much too quickly or it will hurt the economy and we shouldnt cut too close to the bone for the same reason. Can we all agree on that? The concept of cutting 700,000 jobs while handing tax breaks to the rich at a time when job generation is just starting to kick in is ludicrous.

IR - I meant to answer this LONG ago.

Curious about what kind of spending cuts you think would be OK. I don't know just how many ways a state could cut expenses. These are some of the things I can think of:
* Cut state employees - this could include cuts to education, police, any other state body or (partially or fully) state-supported position (cuts public sector jobs)
* Reduce the salary/benefits package of state employees (what Wisconsin tried to do)
* Reduce spending for various state projects (effectively cuts private sector jobs)
* Cut funding for state benefits - unemployment, welfare, etc. (cut off support for those most in need)

I can't think of any others.

It seems to me that Wisconsin actually made the best choice - of the options available. I think it was much more responsible than to cut any of the others, or to continue with huge deficit spending.

= = = = =

Illinois - by the way - has gotten weirder. Income taxes were increased on businesses as well as on individuals. So... Caterpillar threatened to leave Peoria and move to another state. Our Governor gave them a multi-million dollar deal to stay put. After that, similar deals went out to a number of various companies. Now all the businesses are lining up to get their share. The state will probably end up giving away more money than they're taking in with the tax increases.

I have so little faith in the future of this state.

[GrayMouser]

Going meta into the policies of this is that cutting expenditures during a time of 9% employment is insane. I realise that US states don't have an option on this, which is why Washington should be madly pumping money into the economy.

Yes, this is counter-productive when money is tight but currently interests rates are extremely low- the US gov't can borrow money incredibly cheaply, pump up the economy, and pay it back when times are better.

Yes, long-term Medicare costs have to be dealt with (Social Security is not a major problem, no matter how many editorials the Washington Post runs saying otherwise), but not to put the pedal to the metal as far as spending goes right now is just crazy.

We've been through this in the Great Depression; we know what works, but we simply refuse to do it for ideological reasons- that plus the wealthy classes who dominate the discourse- including the talking heads on Sunday- are doing fine, so they don'tgive a damn about the proles suffering out in the Heartland.

[The Gaffer]

Agree 100%.

The cuts agenda is ruining the recovery.

[GrayMouser]

Congrats to voters in Ohio for rejecting anti-union laws 62%-38%