Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship?

[Jon S.]

Amazing that this thread is still going at this late date.

For me, in the end, it comes down to this: The world is a mirror.

Yes, it's possible to view Gandalf as a cunning manipulator and the hobbits as his expendable baggage.

It's also possible to see Gandalf as an immortal demigod who selflessly assumed the pains and aches of mortal flesh to teach, lead, and save, someone to whom friendship is a high value indeed worthy of faith and trust.

I just can't help myself - I see Gandalf as the latter.

[Edited to soften the point.]

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Gandalf as an immortal demigod who selflessly assumed the pains and aches of mortal flesh to teach, lead, and save, someone to whom friendship is a high value indeed worthy of faith and trust.

Yes, he is Demiurg of unique-class: the creator of realities, but nothing like some kind of stylized Santa.
He is not human - a spirit in human form, sent by the High order, and therefore his idea about ME dwellers expendability is quite in tune with those who sent him:to serve the "common goods" as THEY understand them. Gandalf is brilliant, shrewd and scary person, because all human's feelings are alien to him, he can fegn love and affection to manipulate person, but in reality he has none.
Absolutely all his actions were deliberate and had a double bottom, but when time comes to lay down on sacrificion table his own life in the name of the quest, he does it like a true soldier (or android), without hesitation, just the same way as he sends on sure death, without any remorse and wavering, people who love and trust in him.

...who selflessly assumed the pains and aches of mortal flesh to teach, lead, and save, someone

Could you bring a couple of examples of his "selflessness"? Aside from Moria's incident.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Manveru

I find that Gandalf's insisting the hobbits go with the Fellowship is very similar to Gandalf insisting to Thorin that Bilbo has to go with them. Especially if you have read UT, in the Quest of Erebor chapter Gandalf said he had a foresight that Bilbo would be needed to fufill the quest. At the end of Return of the King Gandalf hints that he may have had a foresight that Merry and Pippin would save lives in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Merry saves Eowyn and helps to kill the Witch King and Pippin saves Faramir. in 'the Quest of Erebor' Gandalf argues with Thorin and has with a ferocity that even he can't explain "I knew in my heart that Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure- or, as I should say now, the far more important events by the way would not have come to pass." And this isn't the last time this sort of thing happens to him. He argues with Elrond later who isn't as hot-headed as Thorin so they don't get into an actual argument but he probably realizes that Gandalf is having some sort of foresight, or perhaps he is having a foresight too. But he probably knows to trust Gandalf, knowing what he is and what he was sent to Middle-Earth to accomplish.

I agree with Manveru.

I think the hobbits were taken on the Quest neither because of their friendship with Frodo, nor because they insisted on going. Here Olmer is right. Sentimental reasons were not part of the decision.

It was simply practical. And I believe, Gandalf's did have foresight about their future role in the quest, at least a strong feeling that they were needed. He foresaw that Gollum was vital to the quest, and some of Gandalf's words make us think that he knew what for and when he will be needed. In Mordor and at Orodruin. So why couldn't he have similar foresight about Merry and Pippin?

No, he didn't take them as two spare ring-bearers. He knew they had another role. Without the two fools, Isengard would not be destroyed. Without Merry the Pellennor battle would have been lost! I think Gandalf foresaw that.

And note, Elrond had similar foresight that they were needed in the Shire. And he was right! But Gandalf had more power and foresaw more. He knew of their future importance in the quest.

[Earniel]

The Numenor-discussion is split off and moved into a single thread: The drowning of Numenor.

This thread is to discuss the reasons for having Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship.

[Earniel]

The side discussion about the Valar, Maiar and Men has been split of and moved here where it is better suited. And now I like everyone here to stay on topic.

[Spock]

I like to think they were included for comic relief.

With Frodo all noble and burdened down and the elves, wizards, etc. all heavily invested with morality and good and evil, these two were just "every Hobbit" and showed the faults and peccadellos of everyone.

[Star]

I think, If Merry hadn't been there, Eowyn wouldn't have defeated the witchking of Angmar, and Pip, believe it or not, actually helped in the mines of moria. Think about it, if gandalf hadn't fell, He wouldn't have become Gandalf the white, and Pip also signaled Rohan by lighting the beacons when denethor refused. And I have to agree that because of them the ents went to war against Isengard, and Rohan survived. What would have happened if there was no Gandalf the White? Gandalf the gray lost against Saruman the first time, but as Gandalf the White, he beat him the second time in Rohan.

[Curubethion]

Foresight is definitely my pick for the reason. Foresight, and providence. Merry and Pippin were meant to be in the Fellowship, as was seen by later events.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Star

... and Pip also signaled Rohan by lighting the beacons when denethor refused...

Sorry... not in the books!

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Foresight is definitely my pick for the reason. Foresight, and providence. Merry and Pippin were meant to be in the Fellowship, as was seen by later events.

Foresight, all right... but remember they don´t come like TV - shows, whenever you want. I think some of the arguments are based too much on the way of telling the story and what happened, not what could have happened after the Council of Elrond. And as for Gandalf being an inhumane robot, hardly. Did´nt Tolkien write somewhere that as Olorin, he was taught compassion by one of the Valar? And, as for the common good of the Ainur, did they ever force the Elves to do anything? No, they allowed some to stay in Middle-Earth, though they knew it wouldn´t be as good as if they had come to Valinor. They allowed Fëanor to leave the Undying lands, yet they knew that it would bring much sorrow.
Also, it would have been easier and swifter if the Valar had stormed Barad-Dùr, molten the Ring, and with justice swooped around telling everyone it was them who bothered to come down to ME, and thus earning the worship of all the Free Peoples. It would have been better publicity for them, but no, they agreed the folks to do it themselves. And too much worship results to too many prayers.... The Free Peoples had to "grow up."

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Foresight, all right... I think some of the arguments are based too much on the way of telling the story and what happened, not what could have happened after the Council of Elrond.

That's right. It had happened whatever happened IN SPITE of the best layed out plans of Gandalf and Elrond.
Gandalf can foresee nothing, his argument on an inclusion of Merry and Pippin was a tight friendship between hobbits. In it he was putting his hopes for success(I already said about the real reason).
Nevertheless in whole escapades of the hobbits their friendship played a little part in Frodo's quest, since they became separated and each went on his own way. If it's not for Gandalf's return (which he did not forsee either) Pippin would end as a helpless catatonic, and Merry would be Theoden's chore boy at best.

Did´nt Tolkien write somewhere that as Olorin, he was taught compassion by one of the Valar?

Could you provide a quote where it says about Valar's compassion towards dwellers of Middle Earth? As far as it known, they were too busy to make their own life comfortable .

And, as for the common good of the Ainur, did they ever force the Elves to do anything? No, they allowed some to stay in Middle-Earth, though they knew it wouldn´t be as good as if they had come to Valinor. They allowed Fëanor to leave the Undying lands, yet they knew that it would bring much sorrow.

It was their birthright to stay in Arda, for goodness sake!They need not to BE ALLOWED to stay. Eru created Arda for Eruhini, not for Valar.
And who said that in Valinor it would be better than in Middle Earth? Valar themselves? Why they have to drag elves out of their home? Because they did not have enough of servants over there?
Seems many of Moriquendi have asked the same question and refused the invitation to the gilded cage.

Also, it would have been easier and swifter if the Valar had stormed Barad-Dùr, molten the Ring, and with justice swooped around telling everyone it was them who bothered to come down to ME, and thus earning the worship of all the Free Peoples. It would have been better publicity for them,

Oh, they have had enough of publicity, all right. Every time when they are venturing to help people it's ending up in such major upheaval, that it would be remembered for many thousands years.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Could you provide a quote where it says about Valar's compassion towards dwellers of Middle Earth? As far as it known, they were too busy to make their own life comfortable .

Eärendil? Does that ring a bell?

It was their birthright to stay in Arda, for goodness sake!They need not to BE ALLOWED to stay. Eru created Arda for Eruhini, not for Valar.
And who said that in Valinor it would be better than in Middle Earth? Valar themselves? Why they have to drag elves out of their home? Because they did not have enough of servants over there?
Seems many of Moriquendi have asked the same question and refused the invitation to the gilded cage.

All right, allowed to stay was a bit hasty, I meant that there wasn´t an actual sanction. Why the Elves have to leave Middle-Earth? Morgoth might have had something to do with it.... Mayhaps... Servants? I thought that the services to the Valar may be done anywhere. And what for they should have had servants? Sing a couple notes, and you´ll have a glorius feast in front of you.

Oh, they have had enough of publicity, all right. Every time when they are venturing to help people it's ending up in such major upheaval, that it would be remembered for many thousands years.

Unfortunately, it wasn´t so well remembered.

[Jon S.]

As someone who's constantly Monday morning quarterbacks NFL coaching decisions, I realize I'm a bit hypocritical now saying here that there sure is an awful lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here regarding Gandalf and Elrond's selection of Merry and Pippin for "the team." Sure, certain negative consequences resulted from the choice. There were also quite positive consequences and none of us knows how worse the outcomes might have been had anyone else been chosen in their stead.

[CAB]

It seems to me that the last four positions on the Fellowship were really just "filler". Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo were chosen for obvious reasons. Sam was picked because of his loyalty to Frodo and Boromir was probably asked to stay in Rivendell and leave with the rest of the Fellowship to keep news of Aragorn and the Ring from reaching Gondor too soon (though surely this wasn't the reason told to Boromir).

As for the rest, Legolas and Gimli originally only agreed to stay with Frodo to the crossing of the mountains, so their addition doesn't seem particularly important. And Elrond's decision to include Merry and Pippin really seems like a "well,... ok,... whatever" type thing, doesn't it? There were two open spots remaining (always seemed a bit overly coincidental), they wanted to go, Gandalf spoke up for them, and off they went.

[Gordis]

Hello, CAB - great you are back! You have been missed.

Yes it looks like the extra hobbits were mostly "filler".
But on the other hand, Elrond couldn't really send someone of power - Glorfindel for instance. Nazgul could have overlooked three hobbits in the Emin Muil and Dead Marches and in the Morgul Vale, but no way they would have overlooked the shiny Glorfy.

As for Legolas and Gimli, I have a suspicion that they were included because Thranduil and Dain respectively have requested it.

Thranduil must have suspected that something very important was going on. Aragorn brought Gollum to Mirkwood, Gandalf questioned (and tortured ) him there, then the ranger and the wizard left, seeming much preoccupied, and asked Thranduil to guard the prisoner. I think the Mirkwood King grew suspicious of all these goings on and resented being kept in the dark. So he sent his own son to investigate and take part in what was about to happen.
As for Dain, it was Sauron himself who warned him that a "little ringy" was wanted. I bet Dain felt that the Elves were concoting something again so he sent his trusted advisor Gloin to Rivendell.

[CAB]

Hello Gordis, and thank you.

You gave some good reasons for the inclusion of Legolas and Gimli in the Fellowship. I hadn't considered the political angle with them. I think you're right.

Staying with the political theme may also help explain why there was room for Merry and Pippin on the Fellowship. Why were none of Elrond's people chosen for this journey? As you stated the shiny, resurrected Glorfindel couldn't go, but surely someone else from Rivendell could. Noldorian Elves had been sneaking around Middle Earth quite well for thousands of years. Maybe Elrond could have volunteered "so and so" who was one of his best scouts and was very familiar with the lands south of Rivendell or "such and such" who was often a guest of the Moria Dwarves in years past (since Gandalf said he had considered going through Moria before the quest ever started and probably shared this thought with Elrond).

The answer may be political. As the Fellowship turned out there was no question that Gandalf was the leader and Aragorn was next in line. But what if a high status Noldorian Elf had been a member? Would this have caused a power struggle in Gandalf's absence? It is quite possible, I think. And if Aragorn had ended up following this person to Minas Tirith his claiming of Gondor's crown would certainly have proven much more difficult.

[Gordis]

Very good points, CAB, indeed.

Moreover, some Noldorin Elves - if not most of them - didn't really wish to help actively or to risk going to Mandos poste-haste. Gildor Inglorion is a good example .
Then again, few of the Noldor were not also Calaquendi Elves, so in the Spirit-world they would be as shiny as Glorfindel. As for the Sindar, maybe Elrond didn't consider them much trustworthy when dealing with the One. And in the actual fellowship the Elf was balanced by the Dwarf (who could have thought they would become fast friends?).

[The Gaffer]

Here's my two cents.

Don't forget that LOTR is about Hobbits. Specifically, it is about hobbits "growing up" and taking their place in the world:

The halfling forth shall stand

and all that.

Now, Frodo and Sam, both ring-bearers, end up taking ship and leaving Middle-Earth. So it's not them who "grow up", Sam and Rosie going at it like rabbits notwithstanding; they make the ultimate sacrifice to save the Shire.

It is Merry and Pippin who provide the leadership necessary to kick Sharkey out of the Shire. Remember Gandalf's parting words:

Originally Posted by Gandalf

It's what you've been trained for

Merry and Pippin rouse the hobbits, plan the battle and lead them to victory. This would not have been possible without their inclusion in the Fellowship.

[Star]

??????????? Sam never left on the ship to leave middle earth. He stays behind remember? I don't remember exactly what frodo said but it went something like this "Even though you bore the ring, even if for a little while... My dear sam, you can not always be torn in two, you must be one and whole..." I've read The Hobbit, FOTR, TTT, ROTK, and seen all three movies. In the book and the movie, Sam returns home to Rosie after watching the ship dissapear that bore frodo.

[Gordis]

It is in LOTR Appendices.

LATER EVENTS CONCERNING
THE MEMBERS OF THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

1482 - Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.