Didn't Sauron Know?

[Khamûl]

I was just flipping through The Fellowship of the Ring today, and something caught my attention. In the chapter "The Shadow of the Past", Gandalf tells Frodo that when Sauron arose again after the Last Alliance, he believed that the One Ring had been destroyed. Didn't Sauron know that if the Ring was destroyed, he would be destroyed too, since it had so much of his power in it? After all, when Gollum fell into the fires of Mount Doom with the Ring, the tower of Barad-Dûr was thrown down and Sauron and the Ringwraiths were destroyed too. Or could Gandalf have just been wrong?

[Curandir]

What I've always thought about that is that Sauron didn't know exactly how far down he would actually be depleted when the Ring was destroyed. I think he would be thinking "Well the ring is destroyed and here I am again a bodyless spirit, time to build up the power again from scratch" Remember that he had already made a very simular comeback in what I think was the first age or there abouts. I would have to dive back into the Sil to remember exactly, I don't have instant recall like some of the others.

[StrawberryIcecream]

oh..nice topic.
Well i think Sauron was portrayed as evil dominating dictator etc... and he thought of himself as incredibly powerful and worhty.
Therefore he probably didnt want to believe he was so dependant on a ring. I think that he was just too arrognat to realise. thats the only reason i can think of.

[Sween]

hmmmmmm intresting. I allways saw it in the book he trying to get the ring to cement his power rather than protect against his own destruction. His actions in the book are not so directally linked to the finding of the ring. After fellowship he does seem to kinda give up on it for the time being and deal with gondor. i dont think he see the ring as a threat but if he gets hold of it he will become invinciable.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Curandir
What I've always thought about that is that Sauron didn't know exactly how far down he would actually be depleted when the Ring was destroyed. I think he would be thinking "Well the ring is destroyed and here I am again a bodyless spirit, time to build up the power again from scratch"

True - how dependant on the Ring he was had never been tested before, so Sauron couldn't know for sure whether or not he would be destroyed along with it. When we found himself still alive after he thought it was gone for good, he believed he could build up all his power again "from scratch" as Curandir said. But, of course, the Ring was still around.

[Michael Martinez]

Sauron died in the Downfall of Numenor, and his spirit carried the Ring back to Middle-earth (according to Tolkien in Letter 211. So he was not really separated from the Ring at that time, although it would be about 100 years before he moved openly in Middle-earth again. There have been some long-winded discussions on how long it took him to form a new body. I don't think it took him long at all, since he was able to act with purpose immediately upon being slain in the Downfall.

Tolkien suggests that, when an Ainu was physically slain, his spirit became so weakened it was consumed by malice or anger. It lost its ability to concentrate or focus its energies upon any specific purpose. In speaking of Melkor's execution, for example, Tolkien says his spirit became "unanchored". There was nothing to hold it still, so to speak, so that it could act with purpose or any potential of achieving something physically effective.

Sauron is said to have been reduced to a spirit of malice, impotent and incapable of threatening the living world again, after the One Ring was destroyed.

Hence, Sauron's second death undoubtedly weakened him further, but when Isildur took the Ring from him, he lost his anchor. His spirit was too weak to act with purpose and it therefore fled, incapable of forming or executing any coherent ideas.

So when Sauron finally took shape again 1,000 years later, he must have been extremely weak. That would explain why he remained hidden for so long, and withdrew whenever he seemed to be threatened. It would also explain, in part, his strategy for acting through intermediaries (such as when the Lord of the Nazgul established the realm of Angmar).

At some point, Sauron must have realized that he continued to regain his strength, and that could only mean the Ring still existed somewhere. Hence, he began seeking it, and this was probably after the Watchful Peace, when Sauron returned to Dol Guldur. It was at that time that Deagol found the Ring, and Smeagol murdered him for it.

The Ring seems to have begun responding to Sauron's will at that time, and tried to make itself known to him. But, of course, Smeagol eventually took the Ring in the wrong direction, and hid it under the Misty Mountains. It would not be until Bilbo found the Ring, and took it away, inducing Gollum to leave the mountains, that Sauron would learn what became of the Ring, or where to look for it.

But his initial conclusion that the Ring had been destroyed should also have been falsely confirmed by the fact that no Dark Lord had risen in his place, and no man had become a tenth Ringwraith. Any Numenorean should have succumbed to the Ring in 1,000 years. It required far less time for Sauron to turn three Numenorean lords into wraiths in the Second Age.

Smeagol withstood the Ring for so long (according to Tolkien) because he chose not to use it, but simply to hide it.

[Starr Polish]

Smeagol withstood the Ring for so long (according to Tolkien) because he chose not to use it, but simply to hide it.

But I thought Smeagol/Gollum did use it to catch fish and the occasional orc.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Starr Polish


But I thought Smeagol/Gollum did use it to catch fish and the occasional orc.

I could be mistaken, but I believe there is a passage somewhere in which Tolkien writes that Gollum (Smeagol) did not need the Ring in the darkness.

Of course, he would have used it occasionally, but I really was thinking more about constant use. The nine Men who became Nazgul succumbed "one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in their beginning". But though that passage (in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age") doesn't say that they used the Rings frequently or often, I get the impression that it was the fact of their using the Rings which enthralled them.

Hence, Gandalf admonished Frodo not to use the One Ring. The more he used it, the more he would fall under its sway.

[Blackheart]

Sauron died in the Downfall of Numenor, and his spirit carried the Ring back to Middle-earth (according to Tolkien in Letter 211. So he was not really separated from the Ring at that time ...

What? Damn Tolkein and his letters. It's always conflicting with what's been published, namely that he laid the ring aside before he went to Numenor.

[Michael Martinez]

While that is a common inference from the "Sauron took up again his Ring" passage, Tolkien's letter doesn't necessarily conflict with that account.

[Blackheart]

GArr. Now I'm going to have to go look, because I was thinking of the "laid his ring aside" passage.

But then, I'm not exactly in my head at the moment, and I'm busy figuring out ways to destroy the planet.

If I can't find a way soon, I'll get back to you.

[Michael Martinez]

I don't recall a "laid his ring aside" passage, but I'd be interested in seeing one.

If it's any comfort to you, before I got a copy of Letters, I believed Sauron had left the One Ring behind as well. But in retrospect, I don't think that would have made much sense, given what happened to him when he lost it at the end of the Second Age.

[Archbob the Elder]

It is clearly stated that Sauron Physical body perished alongside Ar-Pharazon the Golden when he set foot on Amen and his spirit was brought back on a black wind.

He should have known for sure that the ring existed because if it had been destroyed, his spirit would have died(as it did when Gollum fell into the cracks of doom).

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Originally posted by Sween
His actions in the book are not so directally linked to the finding of the ring. After fellowship he does seem to kinda give up on it for the time being and deal with gondor. i dont think he see the ring as a threat but if he gets hold of it he will become invinciable.

Actually the war on Gondor was a direct result of his search for the ring. Thinking that one of the mighty men of Gondor would soon obtain and learn how to use the ring, he attacked Gonder before he had planned. Interestingly enough, this is actually what made it possible for Frodo to reach Mt. Doom. Had Sauron not emptied Mordor for the war they would have been found long before reaching the Cracks of Doom.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez
I could be mistaken, but I believe there is a passage somewhere in which Tolkien writes that Gollum (Smeagol) did not need the Ring in the darkness.

Wrong. In "The Hobbit" it is mentioned that Gollum used the Ring to make himself invisible so he could sneak up on goblins, kill them, and eat them. He planned on doing this with Bilbo too, but of course, Bilbo unknowingly had the Ring.

[olsonm]

"For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed." --Gandalf in "The Shadow of the Past"

So it seems that Gollum's use of the ring had become relatively rare. He used it, but seldom.

[Michael Martinez]

I'm right!

I'm wrong!

I'm right!

I'm wrong!

...

[Llark silverwolf]

i think he still new the ring was there so gandolf was wrong duh duh ooooh thats bad

[Minyacamiel]

sauron is a jerk........... lol my little brother is starting to learn Elvish... its so cute

[Archbob the Elder]

Melkor was the Man, Sauron is just a Loser wanna-be.