Gandalf...with an elven ring?

[Elf.Freak]

ok...this might sound crazy, but on the cover of my FotR book it says Gandalf has the ring of fire, an elven ring. my sister thinks that only elves can have elven rings, so she thinks that Gandalf used to be an elf to posess an elven ring.

She's confused me, can anyone help me out???

[cian]

An Elf (CÃ*rdan) gave Gandalf (not an Elf, despite the name) his Elven ring

Aa' menealle nauva calen ar' malta
(May your ways be green and golden)

Suggestion: "Grey Company Elven" is not JRRT's Quenya or Sindarin, and not intended to be accurate regarding the invented languages. It's a roleplaying thing.

Check out Ardalambion on the web, if interested, for a helpful look at the invented langs of JRRT.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elf.Freak
ok...this might sound crazy, but on the cover of my FotR book it says Gandalf has the ring of fire, an elven ring. my sister thinks that only elves can have elven rings, so she thinks that Gandalf used to be an elf to posess an elven ring.

She's confused me, can anyone help me out???

Gandalf was one of the Istari (wizards) which were of the Maiar. All of the Rings of Power with the exception of the One Ring, were made by the Elves. The three rings that the Elves hid from Sauron were Vilya, Nenya, and Narya. Vilya was the mightiest of the three and was originally worn by Gil-galad, but was given to Elrond by him. It was called the Ring of Air. Nenya was the second of the three, and was worn by Galadriel. It was called the Ring of Water. Narya was the third and was originally worn by Cirdan, but given by him to Gandalf when Gandalf came to Middle-earth. Narya was the Ring of fire and had the power to strengthen hearts.

[Miranda]

Why didn't a Mirkwood elf get one of the Rings??? There's one in Imladris- Vilya and one in Lothlorien- Nenya so why not one in Mirkwood? Oh...I suppose the whole Dol Guldur thing would be a bit of a prob...ignore silly ignorent Mimi!!! I just think the Mirkwood elves are a bit left out at times. Mx

[ArwenEvenstar]

*agrees with Miranda*

[Ñólendil]

Actually Miranda, when the Three Rings were made, there was no Rivendell. Gil-galad and CÃ*rdan lived in Lindon, the latter in the Grey Havens (of course). Galadriel either lived in Lindon or Eregion, I'm not learned in her history (and few are, as it is one of the if not most confusing character histories). They weren't dividing among realms, nor were they dividing among themselves (as Celebrimbor handed them out). Rivendell wasn't established until after the War of the Last Alliance, which ended the Second Age.

In fact, CÃ*rdan didn't even receive a ring from Celebrimbor (who made the Three, the only Rings untouched by Sauron). Celebrimbor made Vilya, Nenya and Narya, and he gave Vilya and Narya to Gil-galad; he gave Nenya to Galadriel. There is thus nothing odd about an Elf from Mirkwood (whom I could only guess would have been Oropher, the Elvenking at the time) not getting a Ring.

So Celebrimbor made the Three, gave Vilya and Narya to Gil-galad, and Nenya to Galadriel. Gil-galad gave Narya to CÃ*rdan, and before he died he gave Vilya to Elrond, his herald. When Gandalf arrived, CÃ*rdan gave his Ring to him.

Thus Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel ended up with the Three. I believe in the Appendices somewhere Tolkien names CÃ*rdan, Elrond and Galadriel the greatest of the Eldar (of their time).

Anyway Lothlórien was closer to Dol Guldur than the Woodland Realm was.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Also, the Rings were made by the Noldor.

[Ñólendil]

True, and although only those with some Ñoldorin blood received Rings from Celebrimbor, CÃ*rdan was not a Ñoldo. Then again neither was Gandalf.

I wonder why Celebrimbor didn't keep a Ring for himself. He must have taken after his mother, whoever she was, or perhaps his grandmother. I think the great smith gave two Rings to Gil-galad because Gil-galad was the High King of his people, not to mention those two knew eachother from Nargothrond in the First Age and may have been friends. He may have given Nenya to Galadriel because he loved her. There is a story about that, although in it Celebrimbor is an Elf from Gondolin, which contradicts the Lord of the Rings. In any case I think Galadriel was perfectly entitled to it, being anyway older and I imagine wiser than Gil-galad.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I wonder why Celebrimbor didn't keep a Ring for himself.

It's a good thing he didn't. It would have been captured by Sauron.

I wonder had just one of the three been captured what would have happened to the Elves or even the other two Rings.

[Elvellon]

In the giving of the rings I believe Celebrimbor tried to find those among the Ñoldor that could keep them safe from Sauron’s grasp. Gil-Galad was an obvious choice, being the high king, he had at is command most of the people of the Ñoldor that still remained in Middle Earth.

Galadriel, as you said Ñolendil, was Celebrimbor’s love, so I suspect that that may have been the main reason why he gave it to her, (for they were estranged in their friendship after he usurped the control of Eregion from her and Celeborn). It may be that Celebrimbor felt that it would be only a matter of time before Sauron’s revenge fall upon him and Eregion, and may have felt the need to make amends with her, and put the rings in safe keeping.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Gandalf was one of the Istari (wizards) which were of the Maiar. All of the Rings of Power with the exception of the One Ring, were made by the Elves. The three rings that the Elves hid from Sauron were Vilya, Nenya, and Narya. Vilya was the mightiest of the three and was originally worn by Gil-galad, but was given to Elrond by him. It was called the Ring of Air. Nenya was the second of the three, and was worn by Galadriel. It was called the Ring of Water. Narya was the third and was originally worn by Cirdan, but given by him to Gandalf when Gandalf came to Middle-earth. Narya was the Ring of fire and had the power to strengthen hearts.

Were these Rings of air, water and fire somehow meant to represent the three Silmarils?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Were these Rings of air, water and fire somehow meant to represent the three Silmarils?

I wonder. Celebrimbor created them and he was Feanor's grandson. MM or Nolendil may be able to shed some light here.

[Kirinki54]

I have never seen this connection mentioned inside or outside of Tolkien´s works (of course there are many more to read! ).

But to me it is a bit of too much similarity to exist without any conscious thought behind it. Three rings - three Silmarils. One of each connected to earth, water and air respectively. Celebrimbor with his heritage. It is a nice symmetry anyway.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54
I have never seen this connection mentioned inside or outside of Tolkien´s works (of course there are many more to read! ).

But to me it is a bit of too much similarity to exist without any conscious thought behind it. Three rings - three Silmarils. One of each connected to earth, water and air respectively. Celebrimbor with his heritage. It is a nice symmetry anyway.

It's interesting though that only the three rings were of those elements. Since all of the rings were made by Celebrimber, what elements did they rule, and how did the three rings end up with those elements?

[Ñólendil]

I seriously doubt there is any connexion, unless in number. Maybe Celebrimbor decided to make three because his grandfather did -- or maybe he decided to make three because the Elves were fond of that number and connected to it; Elvish legend speak of the first three Elves to awake: "One", "Two", and "Three", the Vanyar and Ñoldor called them Imin, Tata and Enel. Both Fëanáro and Tyelpinquar may have chosen to make three (Silmarils and Elven Rings, respectively) because of the legend of the Awakening.

I've heard this theory about the relationship between the Silmarilli and the Elven Rings before. There are a couple problems. The Silmarilli were connected with the earth, the sea, and the heavens. The Rings were connected with fire, water, and air. That's not a one-to-one correspondence. Moreover the Three Rings actually had qualties that were metaphorically represented by "fire, water, and air". No one knows about Vilya, but Narya of fire kindled the hearts of others, and Nenya, whatever else it's properties, at least increased Galadriel's desire for the Sea. The Silmarilli, on the other hand, were not seen to have diddly squat to do with earth, sea and the heavens until they were lost. Their connection to elements was in fact only pointed out by Mandos, and not their maker. He said that their fates were bound with the earth, the Sea, and the heavens. He is proved right, as one ends up in a fiery chasm of the earth, one is cast into the Sea, and one, or so the tales tell, became a star of the heavens, Eärendil elenion ancalima. But the Silmarilli themselves, as they were, did not appear to have much to do with the elements. They were about Light and Holiness.

[Kirinki54]

Your facts are all straight of course, Ñólendil. However I do think there can be more to it than you do. True, originally no specific connections are allocated to the Silmarils regarding certain domains. But as you also point out, their fates were bound with the earth, the sea and the heavens. And this is where they had ended up at the time Celebrimbor made the Three. Their places and functions had in other words been altered it would seem.

It is not a long stretch to fire, water and air as to the latter two; as for the former a bit longer but the Silmaril did reside in the fiery chasm of earth.

So, while I think Tolkien never expanded on this, I still think it is very plausible that Celebrimbor tried to connect his Rings to the Silmarils. He had to get their power from somewhere, no? And this seems to be a simple and neat solution.

Given also his relation to Fëanor and that the "mechanics" of the Silmarils were obviously accessible to the most gifted Elven mind; all in all, until someone proves me wrong with a Tolkien quote I think I will like this little theory.

[TinuvielChild]

And I thought I knew a lot about the Three Rings...

[Ñólendil]

I'll agree with you Kirinki, if you clarify your statement about the power.

He had to get their power from somewhere, no?

Surely you aren't suggesting that Celebrimbor used the Silmarilli themselves in some way to achieve his design?

[markedel]

wouldn't it be better to say the power that created the silmarils and the rings was similar-the sub-creative power of the elves, which flourished last in Eregion, a reflection of its birth in Aman.

[MasterMothra]

"my sister thinks that only elves can have elven rings, so she thinks that Gandalf used to be an elf to posess an elven ring."

you didnt have to be an elf to posses one of the rings made by celebrimbor. sauron distributed 16 of the rings to men and dwarves. leaving only the 3 that had not been made with saurons assistance.