Where the Teleri Ships Irreplaceable?

[Maedhros]

When Olwë refuses to help Fëanor and the Noldor he states:
From the Published Silmarillion:

But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.

Why couldn't they make new ships, were they lazy? Did they suddenly forgot how to do it? Didn't they have raw materials?

[Earniel]

Why couldn't Feänor make more silmarils? I think that the Teleri lacked something essential to make new ships as wonderful as the older. Be it knowledge or magic. Even Yavanna couldn't remake her trees. I guess some things can only be made once.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
When Olwë refuses to help Fëanor and the Noldor he states:
From the Published Silmarillion:

Why couldn't they make new ships, were they lazy? Did they suddenly forgot how to do it? Didn't they have raw materials?

Perhaps the White Tembers were rare and they could not get them again, and if the sails were woven by hand as well, then they could not duplicate them exactly to those ships. It would be like trying to reproduce by hand a great work of art.

[Maedhros]

Why couldn't Feänor make more silmarils? I think that the Teleri lacked something essential to make new ships as wonderful as the older. Be it knowledge or magic. Even Yavanna couldn't remake her trees. I guess some things can only be made once.

The interesting thing is that the Silmarils and trees were made by single individuals, while the Ships were made by a "group" of elves. Surely, they hadn't forgotten how to made them.

sails were woven by hand as well, then they could not duplicate them exactly to those ships. It would be like trying to reproduce by hand a great work of art.

I don't think that the sails of the ships were exactly the same. I think that it's sad that when the Teleri reached Valinor, they stopped making ships. Why couldn't they keep perfecting their art? Were there no inventors left among them, was their desire to make new things gone? Did they ever had such desire in the first place?

[Artanis]

In another thread (Turgon's folly) it is mentioned that the Elves put parts of their own spirit into their creative work, like the Silmarils and the three rings. We may assume this also is valid for the Teleri and the building of their ships. Then it is not a wonder that these great works could not be repeated.

[Earniel]

If I remember correctly I believe Ulmo or Ossë taught the Teleri how to build those ships. Maybe the Teleri could not built ships equal in beauty to the first ones without their help.

I don't think the Teleri perfected their shipbuilding art. To me they seemed pleased enough with the ships they had.

[Radagast The Brown]

could be that each ship of the Teleri is defferent, and they don't want the Noldor to destroy their ships. And I bet they didn't want to help the Noldor to rebel the Valar.

[Maedhros]

could be that each ship of the Teleri is defferent

If each ship is different, then why not keep making different ships? Why did they lost their love of making ships?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
If each ship is different, then why not keep making different ships? Why did they lost their love of making ships?

I think it is stated that the Noldorin Elves were the crafty ones that loved making things. The Teleri were lovers of the sea and great minstrels. Because of their love of the sea, they built a fleet of great ships the like of which they could not make again according to them. Perhaps they had no reason to continue this art since they lived apart from the Noldor and Vanyar on the shores of Alqualonde and had what they needed to serve their purpose, and did not anticipate any future events that would have required them to have more then this.

[Sween]

How big were these ships they must of been pretty big.

Maybe this is one of these things where it wouldnt make literary sence for them to say you cannot take out ships for we will be able to make some more wouldnt make much of a story if it all made sence

[markedel]

I think sub-creation is supposed to be an act that uses up part of oneself-the ring is part of Sauron, the ships are part of the Teleri-destroying them actually ruined part of the teleri

[Rían]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
could be that each ship of the Teleri is defferent

I like that idea, Radagast - each one is like a unique work of art. I can't picture elves mass-producing ships, can you? I'm sure that they would all be engineered really well, they would just have different styles.

[Maedhros]

each one is like a unique work of art.

They why would the new ones wouldn't be other works of art of the same level as those created first.

[markedel]

They are like the silmarils-sub-creative works, and therefore unreproducable.

[Maedhros]

They are like the silmarils-sub-creative works, and therefore unreproducable

The silmarils were created by a single individual, whereas the Ships were made by a group of Elves. So those elves somehow lost their creative craft altoghether, or some of them.

[Lief Erikson]

One difficulty, Maedhros, is you're assuming ship construction similar to ship construction on the Planet Earth. If it was ship construction as it is here, I think you'd be right. But we would never speak of our ships' destruction as they did of theirs. Remember, it was called "The rape of the ships of the Teleri." We wouldn't call the burning of our ships a rape. Calling it this implies that it is something more than mere wood and craftsmanship that is being destroyed.

Throughout Tolkien's writing in Middle Earth and Valinor, you find personality and life in inanimate objects. Gandalf and Aragorn don't like speaking of certain things at night, and that isn't because they expect some evil creature is around. Weapons, like Túrin's sword, can speak and have will. The ships of the Teleri, I believe, have the same sort of power. The Teleri created the ships once, in one work of splendor.

I think that life is assumed in the ships of the Teleri, and they were incredibly precious to their builders. It was one glorious act that cannot be repeated. If it was reconstructible, it would diminish its glory.

I don't think that there is any physical reason that is stated in the books that denies the possibility to reconstruct such things. But, like the Rings of Power, they cannot be reproduced. It is something that shines for a while, and which must be protected if it won't fall into darkness.

[Rían]

I like your summary, Lief! That's exactly what I wanted to say, but I couldn't put it into words. You did so, and very well, IMHO

[Keith K]

Very eloquently stated Lief Erikson. I agree with your asessment.

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks RÃ*an and Keith K .

[Elanor Gamgee]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
One difficulty, Maedhros, is you're assuming ship construction similar to ship construction on the Planet Earth. If it was ship construction as it is here, I think you'd be right. But we would never speak of our ships' destruction as they did of theirs. Remember, it was called "The rape of the ships of the Teleri." We wouldn't call the burning of our ships a rape. Calling it this implies that it is something more than mere wood and craftsmanship that is being destroyed.

Throughout Tolkien's writing in Middle Earth and Valinor, you find personality and life in inanimate objects. Gandalf and Aragorn don't like speaking of certain things at night, and that isn't because they expect some evil creature is around. Weapons, like Túrin's sword, can speak and have will. The ships of the Teleri, I believe, have the same sort of power. The Teleri created the ships once, in one work of splendor.

I think that life is assumed in the ships of the Teleri, and they were incredibly precious to their builders. It was one glorious act that cannot be repeated. If it was reconstructible, it would diminish its glory.

I don't think that there is any physical reason that is stated in the books that denies the possibility to reconstruct such things. But, like the Rings of Power, they cannot be reproduced. It is something that shines for a while, and which must be protected if it won't fall into darkness.

Wonderful reasoning, I totally agree with the previous posters!
I would like to add up a few thoughts.
In general the theme of (sub)creation and creator's rights and responsibilities seems to be the central in Tolkien's writing. I believe, Telerin ships also have a very strong symbolic meaning, alongside with the Silmarills and even the Light of the Trees. There are three creators here, Yavanna (who created the Light of the Trees), Feanor (who created Silmarills) and the Teleri (as a group) who created the ships. What is special in the situation is that no one of the creators is able to repeat their creative deed again. For example, Yavanna says:

Even for those who are mightiest under Iluvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Ea I can do so never again. Yet had I but a little of that light I could recall life to the Trees, ere their roots decay; and then our hurt should be healed and the malice of Melkor be confounded.

However, Feanor denies Yavanna's request, even though it means that whole Arda would be denied light. This is what he says:

For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman."

The intensity of Feanor's feelings is evident; to part from his creations for him equals immediate death.

Maedhros has already quoted Olwe's words about the ships, but I would like to recall this quote again:

But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Feanor son of Finwe, these are to us as the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.

I believe, these quotes can lead to several important conclusions.
First, creative process is a great equaliser. Yavanna, Feanor and the Teleri have very similar feelings about their creations. Bearing in mind, that the ultimate creator is Iluvatar, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that an act of creation equals creator (be it Ainu, Elf, or Man) to the One.
Second, I believe, it's about creator's right and responsibility. IMHO Tolkien hints that the creator, and creator only, has any right over his creation. No one tried to force Feanor to unlock the Silmarills, even though the matter concerned a grave danger for the whole Arda.
It is interesting to compare, how Feanor himself behaves in a similar situation. Although the Teleri make their feelings about the ships quite clear, Feanor not only insists, he kills his fellow-Elves to seize the result of their creative process! He, if anyone, ought to have known how a creator feels about the results of his work. I believe that Feanor's actions, by contrast, were a wicked act of ultimate selfishness. No wonder that he was permanently denied re-embodiment by Iluvatar himself.
Just my two cents