Half-Elves

[Acacia]

Rereading the Silmarillion rather confused me on what is and is not considered a Half-Elf.

Let's start with Luthien. If you want to get technical, she was only half elf; her mother was a Maia. Her son Dior was half human, one-quarter elf, and one-quarter Maia. There is no record of his being offered the choice of what to be, which means either he was *not* considered a half-elf, or it doesn't mean anything; he was killed before the Valar decided to give half-elves this choice.

Then he married an elf; their daughter Elwing would have been one-eighth Maia, one-quarter human, and five-eighths elf. She *was* given her choice.

Earendil- fairly straightforward- half elf, half human. He got his choice.

Their children, Elrond and Elros, would have been- ~grabs a calculator~ -one-sixteenth Maia, three-eighths human, and nine-sixteenths elf.

Here's where I start getting confused.

IIRC Elrond's children (25/32 elf, 3/16 human, 1/32 Maia) were considered half-elves and had their choices, though as can be seen they were far more elf than human.

But Elros'? He married a human, so they'd have been 11/16 human, 9/32 elf, and 1/32 Maia. And they weren't considered half-elves, none of them got their choice.

Also, the child(ren) of Arwen and Aragorn, who for the sake of sanity and me not having to do insane amounts of math we will assume to be purely human, was.. 25/64 elf, 19/32 human, and 1/64 Maia. And didn't get their choice.

So: Is a Half-Elf someone who is at least half elf, and also possesses mortal blood?

Does the mortal have to be human, or would dwarves or hobbits work as well?

Could elves breed with dwarves or hobbits?

For that matter, could they breed with orcs who, after all, were elves initially? And would *that* be considered a half-elf? And that's a rather disturbing mental picture so I'll break off that train of thought *right* there..

[azalea]

Didn't follow all of that, but I don't think you can jump back generations to get choices, I think it's limited to what your parents are.

[Findegil]

Well it seems that here we have one of few instances were Christopher Tolkien in his tasked as an editor made a bad choice in rejecting the quote given below. I think he did so because of the children of Elrond, but we can't be sure about his reasons.
(The History of Middle-Earth; Volume 5: The Lost Road and other writings; Part Two: Valinor and Middle-Earth before the Lord of the Rings; Chapter VI: Quenta Silamrillion; look also The History of Middle-Earth; Volume 11: The War of the Jewels; Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; The Last Chapters and The Silmarillion; Chapter XXIV: Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath):

Now the Gods took counsel concerning Eärendel, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps; and when they were gathered together Mandos spoke: 'Now he shall surely die, for he has trodden the forbidden shores.' But Ulmo said: 'For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendel Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or Idril's son Turgon's daughter of the Elvenhouse of Finwë? Or being half of either kindred, which half shall die?' And Mandos answered: 'Equally was it forbidden to the Noldor that went wilfully into exile to return hither.'
Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

The Text were the quote is taken from was the one Christopher Tolkien had to work with when he edited The Silmarillion.
That the children of Elrond were given a special doom afterwards is mentioned in the Appendices of The Lord of the Rings. In Dior's case I would say. He wasn't a half-elf. His mother was Lúthien, but after her return from Mandos she was a mortal woman and since Beren was also a mortal, Dior is naturally assumed to be a mortal as well.
But he had three children and Elured and Elurin were already lost when Manwë made his judgement. Assuming they were dad, they would have been in Mandos awaiting Mandos judgement about them. Since the Valar had a feeling for the ongoing of the history of Arda, I would think they waited with the judgement of the doom of the half-elven (Eärendil, Elured, Elurin, Elwing, Elrond and Elros) until the coming of Eärendil and Elwing, knowing that this should happen soon after Elured's and Elurin's death. (Soon enough for them to be hold in awaiting in Mandos equally if they are assumed to be mortal or immortal.).
My personal feeling is that Manwë had assumed the doom of Men to be more desirable than immortality, and that for that reason he gave the choice to the children of Elrond which normally had to be counted as Elves without any choice.

Hope this was in any way helpful.
Findegil

[Faramir]

I hate math.

[Tar-Elenion]

Dior was indeed a 'Half-elf'. JRRT refers to him as such in both WotJ and PoME and also notes him to be the first of the Pereldar. It is not automatic that a 'Half-elf' have a Choice. A Choice must be specifically granted or a 'half-elf' will be considered mortal. The children of Imrazor the Numenorean and Mithrellas (the forebears of Imrahil) were half-elven by blood, but no Choice is said to have been given to them.

[Eldanuumea]

I never have understood how one goes from "elfhood" to mortality. Why does Arwen have to take the doom/gift of men because she slept with Aragorn? How does marriage to a human remove the immortality from an elf?
Or does the elf...e.g. Arwen.....simply wither and die of grief when the human spouse is gone?

[Faeirex]

I think the giving up of immortality is kind of like a declaration of love- you are prepared to commit to a human enough to die for them, which is really what it boils down to. If she loved Aragorn that much anyway, would she want to go on living after he was dead? And would she want to watch him grow old(er) and die whil she remained forever young?

In the film, the giving up of her immortality was portrayed by giving him her necklace- her life is in his hands, so to speak. It probably has some deep symbolic meaning, but it is a meaning I can't be bothered to work out right now. Would really like to hear other people's thoughts on this subject.

~Fae

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Eldanuumea
I never have understood how one goes from "elfhood" to mortality. Why does Arwen have to take the doom/gift of men because she slept with Aragorn? How does marriage to a human remove the immortality from an elf?
Or does the elf...e.g. Arwen.....simply wither and die of grief when the human spouse is gone?

Arwen was not an Elf. She was a Half-elf who was allowed to choose whether to be accounted among Elves or Men in fate. Luthien Tinuviel was the only 'immortal' who was allowed to change her fate.

[Ñólendil]

Dior, Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir and one other person I forget the name of were all considered Half-elves. Dior EluchÃ*l was the first of the Half-elven.

It's really not good for much (except itself) to figure out exactly how much blood from what Race a character has in them. Lúthien was an Elf. Her mother was of the Maiar, but Lúthien was an Elf. She had Maiain power, and you could even say "Maian blood" if you want, and her fate eventually became that of Men, but she was an Elf. That's just how it goes.

What you're really asking is a question that has been brought up here several times: why weren't Elros's children given the choice? You should search for it, some people have come up with some very good answers.

[Elvet]

I thought that Elros' children didn't have a choice because he chose to be mortal - therefore all his descendents are mortals.

[Wayfarer]

What this really calls for is some experimentation...

Now, how do we go about producing a few half elves? ]: )

[Tar-Elenion]

Elros descendants did not have a Choice because they were not granted a Choice. The question might better be 'why were they not granted a Choice?'. However, since (according to the Judgement of Manwe), it was 'mortality' was 'natural' for those of mixed blood, an even better question might be 'why were Elrond's children granted a Choice?'.

[Reumandar]

Is it possible that maybe Elves can choose to be mortal or not, but mortals can't because once your there there's no turning back, unless of course Eru (who in Arda is called Ilúvatar) let's them?

[Draken]

The thought of half orcs is still troubling me. Even with the "nobody is ugly at 2 am" rule, that would have to be one HELL of a party...

[Archbob the Elder]

Elros chose to be mortal, therefore all his descendants are mortal.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Reumandar
Is it possible that maybe Elves can choose to be mortal or not, but mortals can't because once your there there's no turning back, unless of course Eru (who in Arda is called Ilúvatar) let's them?

Elves in general can not choose to be mortal, they are as bound to their inheritance as other races. The case of Luthien is the only one example in Tolkien's work of an Elf (fully Elf, that is) being permitted to choose mortality, and this was pointed out to be unique.

[Ñólendil]

Welcome to the Moot, Noble-woman!

Draken:

The thought of half orcs is still troubling me. Even with the "nobody is ugly at 2 am" rule, that would have to be one HELL of a party...

I suppose there have been forced mating going on. Though (it has just come to mind), Tolkien once said that under the influence of a higher corrupt power, Men could be reduced almost to an Orkish state in a few generations and could then mate with them willingly. The method was first achieved by Sauron and was lated discovered by Saruman many Ages later.

[Artanis]

Mating with an orc, what an utterly disgusting thought! But still - the southerner friend of Bill Ferny in Bree was said to look more than half as a goblin....

[Willow Oran]

But if there's no turning back for mortals then why was Tuor counted amoung the eldar despite having been born human? And why wasn't that granted to the other human members of the family?

[Artanis]

Did the Valar count him among the eldar, or was it only the elves themselves? I believe only Eru was able to grant immortality to any human, and he never did as far as I know.