A Lord Of The Rings Question

The grey havens is a port, correct? well where does it go? Numenor (sp?) i tought that it was sunk into the ocean or something. Anyway thanks i just finished the book, and I wanted to know where the Grey Havens go to.

The grey havens can send ships to the undying lands.... like at the end of the LOTR, Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel and of course Frodo leave that way. I don't know if it has more domestic uses, but I imagine it does. Cirdan hangs around there, it's his place... and since he gave the third ring to Gandalf, we can assume Gandalf arrived there from the Undying lands. So the port goes both ways. It's also near Hobbiton, which is why the hobbits get questioned about it in Lothlorien.

that's right. the ships of the Grey Havens could sail to the undying lands which are out of the circles of the world.

when Numenor was sunk the shape of the world changed, and the land of the Valar (Valinor) and the island where the elves go (Tol Eressea) fell out of the curvature of the earth. hence, no ship can reach those lands but those made especially for that purpose by the elves.

Yes, Gandalf came from Valinor. He was a Wizard, an Istar, a low-ranking Maia. His name in the West was Olorin, and he was of the people of Varda and Manwe. Just as Saruman was Curumo of the people of Aule, Radagast was Aiwendil of Yavanna and the Blue Wizards were Alatar and Pallando of Orome. The info. is in Unfinished Tales.

The Grey Havens (Mithlond in Sindarin) were actually twin ports on either side of the Eastern end of the Gulf of Lune. Ships were always leaving them to sail to Aman*, specifically to Eressea since after the Downing of Numenore the Elves of Middle-earth were no longer allowed to sail all the way to Valinor (where the Valar, the Powers live).

*Aman was the Undying Lands, consisting of Tol Eressea and Valinor.

It's nowhere stated that Olorin was "a low-ranking Maia".

And the Elves of Mithlond most likely spent the majority of their time fishing or tending to their daily needs. Any Elf could build a ship that would take them to Aman. It was the ships which were special, not the ports from which they sailed.

Tolkien wrote that the ships which made the journey were specially hallowed for that purpose.

Early in the Second Age, it was Cirdan's mariners who took the Edain over Sea to Numenor. When a certain period of time had passed (Tolkien suggests about 50 years) the Valar told Cirdan not to take any more people to Numenor.

Cirdan also sent a ship to rescue Arvedui after the fall of Arnor. Of course, the ship was lost in a late winter storm with all hands. This was apparently not one of the hallowed ships.

It may be that the Hobbits who "went to sea" joined the crews of Elvish ships for brief periods of time.

If the ports were not special then why do we not hear of elven ships putting in at any of Middle Earth's ports? Me thinks the ports may be special too.

Then of course we are speaking of a fictional work aren't we? Even JRT kept correcting things until he passed over.

Hello Michael. Are you feeling better? I posted your essays for you on the MEVault boards, I hadn't been paying attention and there you come along with four new ones. Olorin is indeed a low-ranking Maia. Tolkien said so in his Letters. He said the Istari were Maiar, but not neccissarily of the same level of order. And in a later letter he said they were lesser. So that makes Olorin and the other Wizards "low-ranking Maiar".

It might also be noted (as said vaguely and than clearly in Later Writings; Cirdan in HoME XII, first in the text and than the notes at the end) that Cirdan himself taught Earendil the art of ship-making, and so was Vingilot made.

Spock1, there was another Elven port, near what is now Dol Amroth. But it was last used 500 years prior to LotR, though. The Grey Havens was the main port that the Noldor used to leave ME. Since most of the Noldor lived at Rivendell through the Third Age, it was the closest havens to them. Belfalas was closest to the Elves of Lorien, although Galadriel and her people left through Mithlond as it had the capabilities to build ships for that journey. Everyone at Belfalas anymore were Men(under Imrahil, at the time).

Although Legolas did build his own little ship and left through the Mouths of Anduin.

You mean Lon Daer, Grand? I didn't read about it, so I'm wondering.

Wasn't Lond Daer a Numenorean port? Founded by Aldarion somewhere in SA 800 (or something like that)? I think GAR is referring to the legend of Nimrodel and Amroth. There was an Elven port on the Bay of Belfalas (Lond Daer was part way up the Greyflood) at one time, because that was where Amroth's ship left from. When Nimrodel was lost, one of her "maidens" ended up marrying Imrahil's ancestor.

If the ports were not special then why do we not hear of elven ships putting in at any of Middle Earth's ports? Me thinks the ports may be special too.

No, there is nothing special about the ports. Nor is there any particular reason for us to read about Elven ships putting into the ports of Gondor or wherever.

Tolkien was first and foremost telling stories, and he could only tell so many stories. He never found the need or desire to tell a story about Elven mariners.

Hello Michael. Are you feeling better? I posted your essays for you on the MEVault boards, I hadn't been paying attention and there you come along with four new ones.

Yes, I'm feeling better. Thanks. I plan to get back to the Vault boards soon, but have been catching up with various projects and forums.

Olorin is indeed a low-ranking Maia. Tolkien said so in his Letters. He said the Istari were Maiar, but not neccissarily of the same level of order. And in a later letter he said they were lesser. So that makes Olorin and the other Wizards "low-ranking Maiar".

There is no passage where Tolkien says or implies that Olorin is a low-ranking Maia. I believe you're thinking of the passage where Tolkien says the Istari were of the same kind as the Valar but of lesser power than they. He even states that Gandalf is of the same order as the Valar on more than one occasion (such as in Letter 246).

Tolkien never compared the Istari to other Maiar, except with respect to Sauron. He did express doubt about whether Gandalf could defeat Sauron, even with the Ring. But Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar of all.

Nonetheless, there were only two orders among the Ainur who entered the Halls of Ea: the Valar and Maiar, and a few of the Valar were held as kings and queens but they were still only Valar.

Spock1, there was another Elven port, near what is now Dol Amroth. But it was last used 500 years prior to LotR, though. The Grey Havens was the main port that the Noldor used to leave ME. Since most of the Noldor lived at Rivendell through the Third Age, it was the closest havens to them. Belfalas was closest to the Elves of Lorien, although Galadriel and her people left through Mithlond as it had the capabilities to build ships for that journey. Everyone at Belfalas anymore were Men(under Imrahil, at the time).

The port of Edhellond was abandoned by the Elves more than 1000 years before the War of the Ring. And it's not stated anywhere that most of the Noldor lived with Elrond. "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" says that Imladris because the chief dwelling of the High Elves in Eriador in the Third Age.

And Edhellond was not a part of Belfalas. The Elf-haven was situated just to the north of Belfalas. Nandori Elves had once wandered throughout the lands near the Mouths of Anduin, and Belfalas seems to be one of the areas where they enjoyed visiting. But it was not an Elven land after the founding of Gondor.

Wasn't Lond Daer a Numenorean port? Founded by Aldarion somewhere in SA 800 (or something like that)? I think GAR is referring to the legend of Nimrodel and Amroth. There was an Elven port on the Bay of Belfalas (Lond Daer was part way up the Greyflood) at one time, because that was where Amroth's ship left from. When Nimrodel was lost, one of her "maidens" ended up marrying Imrahil's ancestor.

Lond Daer Ened was the later name of the port of Vinyalonde, which Aldarion built near the mouth of the Gwathlo in southern Eriador. It wasn't called Lond Daer Ened until sometime after the founding of Pelargir in SA 2350. The name "Lond Daer Ened" meant "Great Middle Haven", with respect to the havens of Mithlond and Pelargir.

The Elven port in the south, Edhellond, was NOT on the Bay of Belfalas. It was located near the confluence of the Morthond and Ringlo rivers, on the north side of the river beyond Belfalas. There may have been an Elf haven which was separate from Edhellond, something like ancient Athens' haven. There is one tantalizing passage which suggest that the Elven ships were drawn up below the promontory of Dol Amroth, where the Princes of Belfalas made their residence.

Michael, I realise the Ainur only consisted of Maiar and Valar. As I said, Tolkien said the Istari were Maiar, thought not neccissarily of the same high order (later saying they were lesser, meaning they were Maiar but "low-ranking" as I called them). Since Olorin is an Istar that makes him a low-ranking Maia. Olorin was a person of Manwe and Varda, wisest of all the Maiar, most dangerous of the peoples of Middle-earth in The War of Ring (bar Sauron), and councilor (sp?) to Irmo in his youth, but a Maia nonetheless, and Tolkien said the Istari were Maiar, but not as powerful. So wouldn't that make all the Wizards "low-ranking Maiar"? Maybe it's a poor choice of words.

I just checked, and I think perhaps I read "Maiar" for "Valar". That is, in one letter Tolkien said the Istari were Maiar, but not on the same level, and in a later letter he said they were lesser than the Valar (not Maiar as I thought), naturally, since they were Maiar. So maybe they're high-ranking Maiar.

There really were no ranks among the Maiar. At least, not any that Tolkien mentioned. Saruman may have been the most powerful of the Istari. That's about as close as you can get to any sort of "order" among them.

Technially, there probably was some sort of social hierarchy. The Valar most likely appointed lieutenants to oversee specific matters, and other Maiar probably answered to these lieutenants. Eonwe, at the very least, was a field commander for Manwe. But I don't believe there is any basis to suggest that some Maiar were collectively "lesser" than others as a matter of nature. They were all Ainur, and the Valar were Valar because they were the first to enter the Halls of Ea. The Maiar came to help them later.

I meant power-wise. Like your suggestion that the Barrow-whites (assuming they're Maiar, but I think they are Men as Merry said,--well he said "men of Carn Dum", but that's another story) would be be lesser than the Balrogs. I.e., not as powerful. Perhaps you didn't say "lesser", but I equate the two.

You are making this unnecessarily complex. There was no sub-group of Maiar of lesser power than others to whom the Istari could have belonged let alone did belong. The Istari were not in any way "lesser" Maiar.

And, for what it's worth, the Men of Carn Dum were just that: men. The Barrow-wights didn't show up until more than 200 years later, after the Great Plague had destroyed all but a handful of Cardolan's population.

seems a few duplicate postings here taking up a lot of room.....oh well, more ships in port I suppose.

Regarding Barrow-wights, they aren't just Barrow-wights. They used to be something else before they were wights (unless they're Maiar). You have suggested they were either Maiar or Elvish wraiths because of the kind of power they seem to possess. I hold however that they are Mannish wraiths, infact wraiths of the Men of Carn Dum (because Merry called them 'men of Carn Dum'.). That's what I meant.

I don't think you grasp what I was trying to say about Maiar yet. I just decided the Istari were probobly "higher" Maiar more likely than "lower" (obviously you missed that part). The only sub-group in the Maiar I would be proposing is already fact, the Istari. But power would vary from one Maia to the next. Some are lesser than others. Just as one Rohir might be more skilled in battle than the next, one Maia is more powerful than the other.

The Istari _would_ be the sub-group that is "lower" or "higher", so you wouldn't need a lesser group of Maiar for them (the Wizards) to belong to. Nothing complex about it, the Istari are Maiar, but not on the same order or level. So they must be on a higher level than the rest, or the lower. I say they're higher.