Emblem of Minas Morgul

[Valandil]

As seen by Samwise Gamgee, at the beginning of Book VI of LOTR, the livery of Minas Morgul was:

"...a Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death..."

It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.

They did because they found the Moon appropriate. Also - are you sure it were the nazgul who changed the name of the fortress, not the Gondorians?

Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul.

For all we know, the nazgul could have continued to call it "M.Ithil" for a long time...

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Valandil

As seen by Samwise Gamgee, at the beginning of Book VI of LOTR, the livery of Minas Morgul was:



It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.

Hey that's a keen observation! It does make sense.

[Gordis]

But what was the question, Val?

[Valandil]

Oh - this wasn't really a question thread - just an observation thread.

Also - I didn't mean to imply that the Nazgul or their associates changed the name - or that they called it "Minas Morgul" themselves (maybe we'd solve that with a little digging, but I'm not inclined right now). But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place!

And there were HUGE renovations that the lax Gondorian government never attempted in two thousand years: new Gate (exquisitely shaped like a grinning mouth), new revolving upper tier of the Tower (wow- a marvel) with a spectacular view on the white meadows of the Morgul Vale and surrounding mountains. Perhaps the nazgul kept a restaurant there.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And there were HUGE renovations...: new Gate..., new revolving upper tier of the Tower (wow- a marvel) with a spectacular view on the white meadows of the Morgul Vale and surrounding mountains. Perhaps the nazgul kept a restaurant there.

What do you suppose they served for the Blue Plate Special?

The idea of riding up a glass elevator inside the Tower... like in a Hyatt...

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Oh - this wasn't really a question thread - just an observation thread.

Also - I didn't mean to imply that the Nazgul or their associates changed the name - or that they called it "Minas Morgul" themselves (maybe we'd solve that with a little digging, but I'm not inclined right now). But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place!

The borrowed moon-theory makes even more sense if you think about the nature of Mordor culture: it does create and innovate new things, it simply twists and changes them in its own dark way.

So you wouldn't expect the mangled moon symbol of Minas Morgul to be an original invention of the Nazgûl inspired by some lunar affinity, but an adoption of something already present in former Minas Ithil yet which became twisted to due to decaying and dark nature of Mordor=)

So is there a date for when Minas Ithil ceased being referred to as M. Ithil and instead Minas Morgul?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

So is there a date for when Minas Ithil ceased being referred to as M. Ithil and instead Minas Morgul?

Sometime after TA 2002 but before 2043, most likely straight away after the city was captured. Here are the quotes:

Elrond: And on a time evil things came forth, and they took Minas Ithil and abode in it, and they made it into a place of dread; and it is called Minas Morgul, the Tower of Sorcery. Then Minas Anor was named anew Minas Tirith, the Tower of Guard -"Council of Elrond"

Gandalf: for [Sauron] took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.-"The Palantir"

2002 Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul. - "Tale of Years"

Minas Ithil [the nazgul] took in 2002, and captured the palantÃ*r of the tower. They were not expelled while the Third Age lasted; and Minas Ithil became a place of fear, and was renamed Minas Morgul. -"App. A"

When Eärnur received the crown in 2043 the King of Minas Morgul challenged him to single combat- "App A"

[Rían]

Did they print up new notepaper, or just cross out the old name and write in the new one?

[Attalus]

I suspect that "Minas Morgul" was applied from both sides. "Tower of Sorcery" would be applicable to each.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Seems to me it's a name given to it by Gondor and/or the Elves. The fact that they still used the moon as their symbol indicates that WiKi and his gang may well have continued to call it the Tower of the Moon.

[Coffeehouse]

True. Maybe, just maybe the Witch-King and the rest of Minas Morgul, being so corrupted by darkness and encapsulated in its shady haziness actually believed that the symbol they were using was the same symbol of the Tower of the Moon, a moon. Perhaps they were unable to see that it too had become mangled and twisted by their own evil nature. A psychological demented state

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

True. Maybe, just maybe the Witch-King and the rest of Minas Morgul, being so corrupted by darkness and encapsulated in its shady haziness actually believed that the symbol they were using was the same symbol of the Tower of the Moon, a moon. Perhaps they were unable to see that it too had become mangled and twisted by their own evil nature. A psychological demented state

There is nothing demented about the nazgul. They did use the symbol of the Moon but deliberately modified it. Now it is the "Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death."

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

There is nothing demented about the nazgul. They did use the symbol of the Moon but deliberately modified it. Now it is the "Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death."

Well they certainly do have a progressive condition of deteriorated cognitive functions with telling signs of emotional apathy. I.e. dementia

And we don't really know if they knew they were mangling the moon's face, or if it's sort of happened, beneath the radar of their darkened minds.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Well they certainly do have a progressive condition of deteriorated cognitive functions with telling signs of emotional apathy. I.e. dementia

And we don't really know if they knew they were mangling the moon's face, or if it's sort of happened, beneath the radar of their darkened minds.

You have no base for your diagnosis, dear Doctor. Especially where do you see "emotional aphaty"?
I guess the sigil of the disfigured moon was very artistic, transforming the silly plain face of the full moon into something frightening.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Seems to me it's a name given to it by Gondor and/or the Elves. The fact that they still used the moon as their symbol indicates that WiKi and his gang may well have continued to call it the Tower of the Moon.

Maybe, but the orc Snaga specifically says "I fought for the Tower against the Morgul-rats", so the name was at least in use among the orcs.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm not sure Sauron overestimated his Nazgul (though he probably did somewhat) as much as he underestimated his enemies. It had been long since anyone among men outside of Gondor had proved fearless against Nazgul. How could Sauron know at the time that a pure strain of Numenor remained in the north and that the rightful heir to the kingdoms not only lived but had the courage to face down not just one Nazgul but five at once?

Surely he expected the Men they would have to face would be more like Butterbur or even Bill Ferny. If there was no Aragorn, the Nazgul would have succeeded.

So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I'm not sure Sauron overestimated his Nazgul (though he probably did somewhat) as much as he underestimated his enemies. It had been long since anyone among men outside of Gondor had proved fearless against Nazgul. How could Sauron know at the time that a pure strain of Numenor remained in the north and that the rightful heir to the kingdoms not only lived but had the courage to face down not just one Nazgul but five at once?

Surely he expected the Men they would have to face would be more like Butterbur or even Bill Ferny. If there was no Aragorn, the Nazgul would have succeeded.

So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?

It probably is a combination of both. Sauron might be forgiven such, but a saying come's to mind which he would have done well to heed: "Know thy enemy", and it seems that in the most momentous defeats of dictators they're undoing was underestimating their enemy's capacity to mobilize (Tsarist Russia besieged by Napoleon, Stalin's USSR besieged by Hitler, British-occupied Egypt besieged by the German Afrika Korps, United States Revolutionaries besieged by the British, etc, the list goes on), which for Sauron was the case not only in the hunt for the ring but indeed the rest of the war.

We can also forgive Sauron for implementing a strategy which was not entirely unreasonable: Going in fast, by stealth and snatching the ring before it ever reached Rivendell and before his enemies understand what is going on. But the tactics he chooses for this strategy aren't compatible with the manpower he sends, the Nazgûl. They seem incapable of reigning in the chill darkness they eminate when it's not needed, and thus simply cannot produce the fast stealthy approach that Sauron expects.

**EDIT** Didn't see the newest posts!

Originally Posted by Gordis

But NO! I have to repeat it again and again: Sauron didn't rely on the fear factor: instead he considered fear that the nazgul spread a grave disadvantage.

As I write above, Sauron may choose a fast, stealthy approach, but he is relying on a fear factor whether he intends to or not! If he is unable to understand that the Nazgûl are unable to reign in their fear factor and in place choose a more stealthier approach then has a shockingly poor insight into his own subject's nature.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And you interpret it as: "The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were." Are you joking?

Not rangers of course, but a Dunlending, my bad, was mixing with another situation.

Concerning their mental health: no I'm not joking. The Witch-King here shows evidence that he had forgotten and had a confused understanding of the terrain ahead and the lay of the people, towns and land. When he is given prime information by the Dunlending his mind is refreshed. This is not a direct evidence that the Nazgûl have severely inhibited minds. But as I wrote in a previous post, it is likely that the Nazgûl being slaves of Sauron, being physically and psychologically scarred, suffer from not only a heroine-aliken addiction to darkness but also several other inhibitions like memory loss. Remember, they aren't human any longer. It was a long time since they were and it seems absurd that it has not affected their minds. It's a speculation, true, but it doesn't make it less likely.

Originally Posted by Attalus

This all begs the question of the Naguls' mission, to secure the Ring of Power. It was not the business of the Nazgul to preserve their own existences, but, like any other military asset, to accomplish their mission, at the risk of thier own non-life.

I agree whole-heartedly with this. It raises a good point about the task of the Nazgûl and what they were meant to accomplish: Retrieving the ring at any cost. If we consider the Hashashin of the times during the Caliphates, whom were highly-trained assassins meant to locate and kill (or even kidnap and retrieve) targets. They were obliged to do their best, they obliged to finish their mission and if neccessary, die trying.

[CAB]

The Nazgul were sent because they were Sauron's only servants with any remote possibility of successfully completing the task. Sure, maybe a group of Black Numenoreans or even some Orcs may have been better suited to recovering the Ring, but they would have been completely unsuitable for returning the Ring to Sauron. Only the Nazgul would have given the Ring back. Sauron didn't make a poor choice by sending the Nazgul. It was the only choice he had.