Wraiths Before the Ring

[FirstClassRanger]

Alright, I know this is like... an age old topic, I'm sure, but I want to get as close to a solid answer as I can get with this thing. This is one of the biggest things in all of Middle-Earth for me; both in terms of interest and importance, and how much it bugs me not knowing. What were the names and origins of the Nine??

Here's what I've got. Please contribute, either for or against whatever I might suggest. I know all Nine will never be named in terms of canon-iness, but I'm making an attempt to fill a void here. This is what I got (keep in mind that I'm not a Tolkien-atic Know-it-all ...I'm just a fan who wants to know more).

Here it goes!!

The Witch-King, I think, would've been Tar-Surion.
Khamul is Khamul, this we know.
Then I bring into question Gothmog. I'd like to believe that he was the third wraith. Not one of the Numenoreans, no doubt, but one of the other wraiths.
Other than these few I ain't got much on the subject, but I'm hoping a few hardcore Tolkies will get on board with this and provide me with some sort of make-shift answer. This bugs me because important people need names, for real. So please, help me... I'd like to sleep at night.

I appreciate it, and again... keep in mind that I don't know a whole lot.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by FirstClassRanger

This is one of the biggest things in all of Middle-Earth for me; both in terms of interest and importance, and how much it bugs me not knowing. What were the names and origins of the Nine??

There are many here who share your interest in nazgul. Welcome to the Moot, Ranger!

Originally Posted by FirstClassRanger

The Witch-King, I think, would've been Tar-Surion.

That would be the first time I hear this idea. But it could only be wrong. That's why:

IX. Tar-Súrion. He was the third child of Tar-Anárion; his sisters refused the sceptre. 7 He was born in the year 1174, and ruled for 162 years; he surrendered the sceptre in 1556, and died in 1574.- Unfinished Tales, Line of Elros

You see Tar-Surion, the IX King of Numenor, died in Second Age 1575. Sauron made the Ruling Ring in SA 1600, then attacked Eregion and acquired the Nine Rings in SA 1697. No way could he give one of the Nine to Tar-Surion, long-dead and gone beyond the Circles of the World.

The future nazgul had to be alive and active sometime after SA 1697, but likely before SA 2251 (The nazgul first appear - App B, LOTR) - that is the requirement imposed by Tolkien's dating of various events.

Now to the known hypotheses about the WK's possible identity an the list of "suspicious persons".

Kings of Numenor:
Tar-Minastir
Tar Ciryatan
Tar-Atanamir

For the first one the dates of the life fit, but little else. For Ciryatan and Atanamir there is a nice theory by Olmer that you can read here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12230 Pay attention to Olmer's posts on page 2.

Princes of Numenor:

Isilmo, father of Tar-Minastir, a very suspicious person. He should have been King, but somehow was circumvented - his sister ruled and then his son. That is all we know about the guy:

X. Tar-Telperien. She was the second Ruling Queen of Númenor. She was long-lived (for the women of the Númenóreans had the longer life, or laid down their lives less easily), and she would wed with no man. Therefore after her day the sceptre passed to Minastir; he was the son of Isilmo, the second child of Tar-Súrion. (8) Tar-Telperien was born in the year 1320; she ruled for 175 years, until 1731, and died in that same year.
Note 8:It is curious that the sceptre passed to Tar-Telperien when Tar-Súrion had a son, Isilmo. It may well be that the succession here depends on the formulation of the new law given in The Lord of the Rings, i.e. simple primogeniture irrespective of sex (see p. 218), rather than inheritance by a daughter only if the Ruler had no son.

The theory about Isilmo as the Witch-King can be read here: Isilmo

Unnamed prince, either brother or uncle of Tar-Ciryatan. Please read this excellent article by Alcuin:http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm

There is also Numruzir's Tal-Elmar theory, but I can't find the link anymore .

Originally Posted by FirstClassRanger

Khamul is Khamul, this we know.

Not much is known about him. He was an Easterling and was known as Khamul, the Shadow of the East, while he was Lieutenant of Dol Guldur in the Third Age. I believe Khamul is not his original name, but an epesse acquired after he became a wraith.

Then I bring into question Gothmog. I'd like to believe that he was the third wraith. Not one of the Numenoreans, no doubt, but one of the other wraiths.

You may be right, he was likely to be the third nazgul. Gothmog is obviously another epesse, given by Sauron. He may have been of any people: Southron, Easterling or Numenorean.

Other than these few I ain't got much on the subject, but I'm hoping a few hardcore Tolkies will get on board with this and provide me with some sort of make-shift answer. This bugs me because important people need names, for real. So please, help me... I'd like to sleep at night.

There are lists of names given to the nazgul in various non-Tolkien sources: MERP modules, cards collections, diverse fanfics etc. The MERP list even had a woman - Adunaphel. But these names have nothing to do with the Professor.
So, if you want to sleep well, compile your own list.

[barrelrider110]

In the Akallabêth it says:"...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." Note he didn't implicitly state "Kings". I would eliminate those in the line of succession. Why would Sauron's promise appeal to them?

[FirstClassRanger]

And that is what I came here for! Thanks, Gordis. I figured I was wrong about Tar-Surion because I had limited knowledge on the subject... but from the information I did have, I made what I judged to be the best possible guess. Had I read all the books I own, I would've known I was wrong from the start. However, I'm more interested in acquiring knowledge through discussion, debate and trial-and-error over time... as opposed to reading.

It's more fun to theorize and take an uneducated stab in the dark and have a high risk of being told I'm wrong... 'cause in the case that I was right I'd be a genius for it.

You think "Gothmog" and "Khamul" are nick-names? This isn't something I'd considered.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by barrelrider110

In the Akallabêth it says:"...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." Note he didn't implicitly state "Kings". I would eliminate those in the line of succession.

Well clearly there couldn't have been three Numenorean Kings among the nazgul . One maybe, though even that is hotly contested by some Tolkien scholars.
Yet, "great lords" seems to imply at least persons of the Line of Elros, if not specifically princes of the Royal family.

Originally Posted by barrelrider110

Why would Sauron's promise appeal to them?

You mean what appeal could a Ring have for a King of Numenor? There were at least two possible reasons:
1. Eternal life. Ar-Pharazon let all his kingdom and all his army be destroyed for this very snare. Immortality was most appealing to any man, even a King.
2. Sorcery. If a King was interested in supernatural (and every King had some hobby, as we learn from UT), then one of the Nine rings that provided an access into the Spirit World would open new horizons in sorcery.

You think "Gothmog" and "Khamul" are nick-names? This isn't something I'd considered.

Gothmog was called after the famous First Age lord of balrogs, head of Morgoth's Army. Do you see a human couple giving their baby-boy such a name?
On the contrary, I totally see a name like that granted by Sauron to one of his top servants in recompense for faithful service.

"Khamûl". Nobody knows what language is that. A good guess would be the Black tongue. If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery:
"nazgûl"= "ringwraith"
"nazg"="ring"
"ûl"="wraith"
My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow".
And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth.

The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "Khamul" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land".

[FirstClassRanger]

I thought '-gul' meant magic (or sorcery)...

[Alcuin]

“-gul� as in “Morgul� means “sorcery� in Sindarin. “-ûl� as in “Nazgûl� means “wraith� in Black Speech, a language invented by Sauron and used mostly by him and his chief servants. That he borrowed from or used (or abused) Sindarin or to make it would not be surprising; and we know he used an Elvish script to inscribe his spell on the One Ring.

Tolkien says that the Kings of Númenor were embalmed in a manner similar to that of Egyptian pharaohs, and that they were all interred in valley called Noirinan at the south slope of Meneltarma, a forerunner of Rath DÃ*nen, the “Silent Streetâ€� in Minas Tirith where the kings and stewards of Gondor were buried beneath mount Mindolluin.

Khamûl is the only Nazgûl definitely named. I think Gordis is right on target with the meaning of his name: I had not considered it before. (Nazgûl are Gordis’ especial interest.) RotK Gothmog was the Lieutenant of (Minas) Morgul and took command of the army attacking Minas Tirith after the demise of the Witch-king, so lots of folks believe he might also be a Nazgûl.

Iron Crown Enterprises developed a popular game called Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP), similar to D&D or Traveller (if anyone remembers that oldie), in which they assigned names to the other eight Nazgûl. (ICE went bankrupt in 2000 and lost its license; MERP survives on the web. ICE also developed some really neat, highly-detailed maps of Middle-earth that are also non-canonical: in other words, you can’t use them to prove a point in a Tolkien-related forum – though sometimes folks try!) Here are ICE’s names for the Nazgûl, courtesy of Encyclopedia of Arda (a great resource):

1. Er-Murazor (the Witch-king, almost certainly a Númenórean)
2. Khamûl (the only canonical name: Tolkien gave it to him)
3. Dwar of Waw
4. Ji Indur Dawndeath
5. Akhorahil (another Númenórean)
6. Hoarmurath of Dir
7. Adûnaphel the Quiet (Númenórean woman)
8. Ren the Unclean
9. Uva the Horseman

If it is of any interest, I have recently read that

'Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King excellent' until after the downfall of Numenor.' JRRT, from notes in [Parma Eldalamberon] 17, base SAWA- 'disgusting, foul, vile'

I cannot independently verify the information, but I trust the source.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

1. Er-Murazor (the Witch-king, almost certainly a Númenórean)
2. Khamûl (the only canonical name: Tolkien gave it to him)
3. Dwar of Waw
4. Ji Indur Dawndeath
5. Akhorahil (another Númenórean)
6. Hoarmurath of Dir
7. Adûnaphel the Quiet (Númenórean woman)
8. Ren the Unclean
9. Uva the Horseman

You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you? Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you?

Profit, I presume.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?

If by “factual basis�, you mean something written by Tolkien, no, I don’t believe it does. (I should willingly be corrected on this point by another ’Mooter.)

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Profit, I presume.
If by “factual basis”, you mean something written by Tolkien, no, I don’t believe it does. (I should willingly be corrected on this point by another ’Mooter.)

You're right.. probably profit. But what I meant is, do you know if they gave any reasons for why they chose the names they do. Are they taken out of thin air or do they mean anything.

I'm asking because some of them look amateurish and not Tolkienesque at all

[Alcuin]

Oh, if you want to speculate on the source of the names, I should say published Tolkien material at the time, D&D, and such late-night imbibings and libations as were common in the early- to middle-1980s.

“Er-Murazor” and “Adûnaphel” sound as if they might be faux-Adûnaic; “Adûnaphel” has –adun, Adûnaic for “west” in it. “Akhorahil” sounds as if it might be an attempt to get at a Sindarin-sounding name. (Akhorahil seems to have been called “the Blind Sorcerer” or “Akhorahil the Blind”.) “Er-Murazor”, “Akhorahil”, and “Adûnaphel” might all be worked out from what was known about Adûnaic and Sindarin at the time: you might start with the appendix to Silmarillion and see what was borrowed from the glossary; and there were other books published on Tolkien’s languages in the early 1980s, too. (I have one of them around here someplace…)

“Ji Indur Dawndeath” sounds like a character in Star Wars; it strikes me that it could be some corruption of the English “engender dawn death”, as in, “kill them at dawn”. “Ren the Unclean” kind of rhymes, and “Dwar of Waw” sort of alliterates. “Hoarmurath of Dir” reminds me of “hoar [old] muriatic acid”, leading to “hold the muriatic acid, dear.” “Uva the Horseman” – well, I can’t get anything out of that except ova, Latin for “eggs”, but then my imagination might not be what it used to be.

As I write, these names come back to me from decades ago, standing in the bookstore looking through the game books and wondering how these guys got the license after the first Lord of the Rings movies meshed with the D&D craze, and what they paid for it.

This is pure speculation and impression on my part. It all sounds silly, but I was a DM at the same time the guys at ICE were devising Nazgûl names. Coming up with names is a difficult business, especially when you have a deadline and lots of them to invent.

Anybody else who has a good idea should post it. Anyone who has any real knowledge – an old ICE or MERP employee or developer, perhaps – would be most welcome!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you?

Profit, yes, and then they wanted to provide an interesting setting for the people to play in. That's why there is a woman among the Nine, although Tolkien almost certainly didn't intend this. It just makes a better story: the all-boys team is a bit dull. We have had the same problem in our two nazgul RPGs here on the Moot. We had even three nazgirls - and it was a lot of fun.

Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?

No it does not. ""Murazor" is Adunaic, or seems to be Adunaic - but at the time Princes of the Royal family always used Quenia names, even if the name had a popular Adunaic translation.

What does "Er-" mean, I am not sure. If "Ernil"=Prince than it would be Sindarin, crazy to use it with Adunaic name. And I never saw "Ernil" form a prefix "Er-" like "Tar-" or "Ar-"


And take Adunaphel the ICE-MERP nazgulette. Want a laugh?

I think I have found out where the MERP guys took the idea. (For they are serious guys, some of their info has at least a slight basis in the canon. Hmm... very slight. )

Look here at this quote from the beginning of "A Knife in the Dark"

There was a faint stir in the leaves, and a cock crowed far away. The cold hour before dawn was passing. The figure by the door moved. In the dark without moon or stars a drawn blade gleamed, as if a chill light had been unsheathed. There was a blow, soft but heavy, and the door shuddered.
'Open, in the name of Mordor!' said a voice thin and menacing.

A THIN voice! So - here we have a woman! And if you reread Adunaphel's MERP story attentively, you will find out that it WAS Adunaphel who knocked on the door at Crickhollow!". No matter that later she broke the said door with two "soft but heavy" blows. Isn't she an awesome girl?

According to MERP she was the one who lived with Khamul in Dol Guldur away from the seven in Minas Morgul. I wonder if it was supposed to be a romance.