Images stored on the Palantir HD- the key to find the Ring?

[Gordis]

The Palantiri were used for three things
1. Observation
2. Communication between stones
3. Looking in the past

It is the third mode (looking in the past) that I propose to discuss.

Gandalf says:

“Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would - to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!' LOTR, the Palantir

Now I hardly doubt that one could use a Palantir to look back on ANY event of his choice.
More likely, the only thing possible was to go through the images stored in the Palantir – much like one can go through the image files and video sequences recorded on a computer’s hard disk.

Here are the quotes from UT proving that the Palantiri stored images and that the stones were kept in the dark and shrouded to prevent unnecessary images to be stored:

They retained the images received, so that each contained within itself a multiplicity of images and scenes, some from a remote past… They themselves could be and usually were kept in the dark, because it was much easier then to see the scenes that they pre¬sented, and as the centuries passed to limit their 'overcrowding.'
“the remoter the past the clearer the view�

But if that is true, then it implies that different stones had different images stored. The stones only stored images that were first viewed in real-time “observation� mode. For instance, if one was interested to see how Hyarmendacil I the King of Gondor defeated the Haradrim in TA 1050, one had to use the nearest stones: either the stone of Minas Tirith or that of Minas Anor, or the bigger stones: that of Osgiliath or Amon Sul to try to find this sequence, but not the stones of Orthanc or Annuminas, as these small stones were too far away to observe the battle. We know that

For distant viewing there was a "proper distance," varying with the Stones, at which distant objects were clearer. The greater palantÃ*ri could look much further than the lesser; for the lesser the "proper distance" was of the order of five hundred miles, as between the Orthanc-stone and that of Anor. The Palantiri (UT) note 18.

That is what I am coming to:

The biggest question of the Third Age was the whereabouts of the One Ring. If there was a sequence of Isildur’s last moments recorded by one of the stones, the one who found this sequence would get a HUGE advantage in the search for the One.

Isildur fell at the Gladden fields in TA 2. Let us look at the map. The nearest (small) stone is that of Orthanc. The other small stones (Anor, Ithil and Annuminas) are too far away. So the sequence of Isildur’s death could have been recorded either by Orthanc stone or by the bigger stones: Amon Sul and Osgiliath ones.

Note this passage in the “Disaster of the Gladden fields�:

The story of the last hours of Isildur and his death was due to surmise: but well-founded. The legend in its full form was not composed until the reign of Elessar in the Fourth Age, when other evidence was discovered. Up to then it had been known, firstly, that Isildur had the Ring, and had fled towards tin River; secondly, that his mail, helm, shield and great sword (but nothing else) had been found on the bank not far above the Gladden Fields; thirdly, that the Orcs had left watchers on the west bank armed with bows to intercept any who might escape the battle and flee to the River (for traces of their camps were found, one close to the borders of the Gladden Fields); and fourthly, that Isildur and the Ring, separately or together, must have been lost in the River, for if Isildur had reached the west shore wearing the Ring he should have eluded the watch, and so hardy a man of great endurance could not have failed to come then to Lórien or Moria before he foundered.

It seems that the stone of Amon Sul had no record of Isildur’s death. Valandil Isildur’s son was fostered in Rivendell. They have undoubtedly searched (in vain) for Isildur’s body. Valandil was the owner of Amon Sul stone, but it was of no help, it seems.
If the stones of Gondor (Osgiliath and/or Orthanc) had recorded the sequence, they had no idea about its importance - as nobody in Gondor seemed to know that Isildur had the Ring. The relationships between Arnor and Gondor quickly deteriorated. And the stone of Osgiliath was lost in 1437.

Now let us look at Saruman’s doings:

Saruman had no doubt from his investigations gained a special knowledge of the Stones, things that would attract his attention, and had become convinced that the Orthanc-stone was still intact in its tower. He acquired the keys of Orthanc in 2759, nominally as warden of the tower and lieutenant of the Stewards of Gondor. At that time the matter of the Orthanc-stone would hardly concern the White Council. Only Saruman, having gained the favour of the Stewards, had yet made sufficient study of the records of Gondor to perceive the interest of the palantÃ*ri and the possible uses of those that survived; but of this he said nothing to his colleagues.

Now, why was Saruman so interested in the Orthanc Stone? Was it just to gaze around? I doubt it. His primary concern was to find the One Ring. I think it was specifically the sequence of Isildir’s death that interested him.
And I think he HAS FOUND it recorded in the Orthanc stone. Because who has found Isildur’s body (and Elendilmir with it) in the river? It was Saruman, thousands of years after Isildur’s death and NOT Elrond and Valandil who must have searched the river shortly after the disaster of the Gladden.
Also note that Saruman started searching the Gladden about the same time when he got the Orthanc stone - about 2760.

Maybe the “bad guys� have figured the importance of the Palantiri for the search of the One as well. The Witch-King sought to capture the Palantir of Amon Sul (1409 and 1974), then got that of Minas Ithil (2002). But this one was of no help. Now it seems that Sauron was able to read much of Saruman’s mind when the latter used his stone. Perhaps he got the idea to search the Gladden from the unsuspecting Saruman?

What do you think?
;21

[Earniel]

A most interesting find, Gordis! I completely missed the reference to the Stones storing images.

They retained the images received, so that each contained within itself a multiplicity of images and scenes, some from a remote past… They themselves could be and usually were kept in the dark, because it was much easier then to see the scenes that they pre¬sented, and as the centuries passed to limit their 'overcrowding.' “the remoter the past the clearer the view�

If the palantirs filled up with memories, wouldn't this indicate that at one point in the future, their memory was saturated and that no new image could be added? I wonder whether one could still use the Palantir then. I doubt the images could have been purged like one can with computer records.

Kind of freaky to think that all conversations that happened through the palantir must also have been recorded. Albeit probably without the sound. It certainly reduces the privacy I thought the stones offered. Anyone skill-full enough who uses the stone after you can see who you've been talking to! (Maybe something to remember, Gordis, in relation to the RPG-palantir scenes. )

However if they store only the images received, they should only retain scenes and memories of what somebody was looking at, at a past moment in time. There is nothing to indicate that the palantirs simply recorded scenes happening around them. If, as you suggest, the death scene of Isildur was stored in a memory of the Stones then somebody most have been looking at the time. I'd say this is unlikely. Unless something is specifically said that the Palantiri store other images than those received, do you have a quote like that somewhere?

Originally Posted by Gordis

[...]but not the stones of Orthanc or Annuminas, as these small stones were too far away to observe the battle. We know that.

If the small Stones were limited to 500 miles, than the Annuminas Stone would be unable to communicate with say, the Ithil Stone, right? But there is no mention (that I know of) of Stones being unable to talk to one another. And one would assume the Elendili were smart enough to configure their palantir network to an optimal contact with each Stone.

Could the 500 miles-limit then only be for observation? It would seem unlikely that a Stone can 'see' less far than it can 'talk'. Perhaps the smaller Stones could bounce off their contact through other Stones to reach farther away Stones?

It would also be interesting to know if someone could tap into the memory of another Stone, possibly this would require a viewer at the second Stone and I think this probably was very unlikely, but it is an interesting thought.

Now, why was Saruman so interested in the Orthanc Stone? Was it just to gaze around? I doubt it. His primary concern was to find the One Ring. I think it was specifically the sequence of Isildir’s death that interested him.
And I think he HAS FOUND it recorded in the Orthanc stone.

I don't think the observation powers of the Orthanc Stone should be so easily disregarded. With direct observation, Saruman could search the Gladden Fields without having to be physical present, so his intentions could stay hidden far longer.

He could have sifted through the recordings, but I doubt he found Isildur's end there, because I still think the recordings needed a comtemporal viewer, and if there had been a viewer, who then should still be Gondorean, then I think more tidings of the end would have been made known and Isildur's body would have been recovered sooner.

And as an after-thought, if we look at the 'odd stone out':

Originally Posted by LoTR, appendix A, iii

Elendil set it there so that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eresseä in the vanished West; but the bent seas below covered Númenor for ever.

This quote seems to indicate Númenor can't be seen in the Emyn Beraid palantir, but since it originally was there for some time, it should have all opportunity to store images. So it is curious to note that the Stone of Emyn Beraid, which is said to be "unlike the others and not in accord with them" not only doesn't have a link with the others but doesn't seem to have a memory of its own.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Kind of freaky to think that all conversations that happened through the palantir must also have been recorded. Albeit probably without the sound. It certainly reduces the privacy I thought the stones offered. Anyone skill-full enough who uses the stone after you can see who you've been talking to! (Maybe something to remember, Gordis, in relation to the RPG-palantir scenes. )

Yes we have to remember that. Though indeed, the Palantiri recorded images not sound, so one could see who you've been talking to, but not what was said. Also I doubt that the Wardens checked the stored images regularly - only if they suspected something strange or unauthorized had occurred in their absence.

Originally Posted by Earniel

However if they store only the images received, they should only retain scenes and memories of what somebody was looking at, at a past moment in time. There is nothing to indicate that the palantirs simply recorded scenes happening around them.

When not used, the Palantiri were covered, shrouded. If something were recorded then, yes, there was somebody who looked at it. You are correct.

And I don't think it strange that at least one stone (likely more) followed Isildur's progress North, checking on the party regularly. Isildur was the High King of Arnor and Gondor, after all! And once a warden saw the fight with Orcs, it was highly unlikely he would get bored and stop looking - would you? The fight lasted for several hours and it has started in daylight, but then the night fell - and a palantir gets no image in darkness. However, weak as it is, there is still some light at night. Much more difficult (if at all possible) is to follow an invisible target. Maybe, ripples on the water from the swimming man could be visible. Or the observer just scanned both banks, when he noticed Isildur reappearing by the west bank? He was visible when they shot him.

It is likely that three Palantiri (Orthanc, Osgiliath and Amon Sul) have recorded the fight, but only one warden (from Orthanc) was able to see Isildur's end on the west bank.

Originally Posted by Earniel

If the small Stones were limited to 500 miles, than the Annuminas Stone would be unable to communicate with say, the Ithil Stone, right?

Right. In the North only the Amon Sul stone was big enough to communicate with Gondor. That's why Amon Sul and its Stone was so hotly disputed between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rhudaur.

The Kings of Arthedain maintained a special warden at Amon Sûl, whose Stone was held to be the chief of the Northern palantÃ*ri, being the largest and most powerful and the one through which communication with Gondor was mainly conducted.

Originally Posted by Earniel

Could the 500 miles-limit then only be for observation? It would seem unlikely that a Stone can 'see' less far than it can 'talk'. Perhaps the smaller Stones could bounce off their contact through other Stones to reach farther away Stones?

I think 500 miles is a limit for small stones, as stated in UT. That's why there were 2 big stones as well among the 7 stones given to Amandil. Of course, when everything was in place and worked properly, the Annuminas Stone could rely a message to Amon Sul, and this one to any small stone in Gondor (Minas Anor's one for instance). But if a King of Arnor wished to talk to the King of Gondor in private he either had to travel to Amon Sul, or ask the Gondorian King to come to Osgiliath. Maybe that's why the relationships have deteriorated...

I don't think the observation powers of the Orthanc Stone should be so easily disregarded. With direct observation, Saruman could search the Gladden Fields without having to be physical present, so his intentions could stay hidden far longer.

I am not disregarding the observation powers - they were handy. But they are unlikely to be of much use to find the Ring lying in darkness at the bottom of the river and covered in layers of sediment.

Originally Posted by Earniel

the recordings needed a comtemporal viewer, and if there had been a viewer, who then should still be Gondorean, then I think more tidings of the end would have been made known and Isildur's body would have been recovered sooner.

But if the scene of Isildur's death were observed and recorded by the stone of Orthanc only, its Warden wouldn't understand the importance of the picture. No one in Gondor seemed to know that Isildur carried the One Ring - not even the King Meneldil of Gondor, Isildur's nephew. Likely the Warden of the stone of Orthanc reported to Meneldil, but did the message find its way North?

Sure, out of courtesy, the King should have warned Valandil (Isildur's heir) that the last minutes of his father had been recorded, but it looks like Meneldil was rather hostile to the Northern line almost from the start:

Meneldil was the nephew of Isildur, son of Isildur's younger brother Anárion, slain in the siege of Barad-dûr. Isildur had established Meneldil as King of Gondor. He was a man of courtesy, but farseeing, and he did not reveal his thoughts. He was in fact well-pleased by the departure of Isildur and his sons, and hoped that affairs in the North would keep them long occupied. UT, Disaster of the Gladden, note 10

Perhaps Meneldil was even more pleased when they all got killed - never to bother him again - and saddened that the youngest of Isildur's sons survived. But for the existence of Valandil, Meneldil would have been King of both Arnor and Gondor. As it was, the child Valandil still claimed the High Kinship - which was galling for the ruler of Gondor - the larger and more prosperous Kingdom.

I’ve just had a wild thought... doesn't the situation with Isildur getting "missing, presumed dead" resemble the situation with Earnur? In the latter case the Stewards were able to rule "until the King returns". Maybe in the former case (from Gondorian POV) the High Kinship was suspended "until Isildur is found" - so Meneldsil was really NOT interested to find the body?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes we have to remember that. Though indeed, the Palantiri recorded images not sound, so one could see who you've been talking to, but not what was said. Also I doubt that the Wardens checked the stored images regularly - only if they suspected something strange or unauthorized had occurred in their absence.

Yeah, I figured that one out too. And since even the 'speaking' through the Palantir was a sort of thought-transfer, lip-reading probably wouldn't get you anywhere. So unless somebody was using the Osgiliath Stone, that could eavesdrop if I'm not mistaken, then palantir-conversations would be private enough.

And I don't think it strange that at least one stone (likely more) followed Isildur's progress North, checking on the party regularly. Isildur was the High King of Arnor and Gondor, after all!

One thing that for me didn't quite ring true in this theory is that the Amon Sul Stone should then have been watching too. The mountains between shouldn't have been a problem. It is a strong Stone, and as you say there's reason enough to track the journey of the High King. But I realise one can argue that Isildur left too swiftly, without sufficient warning for the Northern Wardens to be aware of his approach and survey the Stones at that time. The text in the 'Disaster at the Gladden Fields' do say he left in haste. But even so one would expect the Southern Warden to inform the Northern Wardens of his departure.

And even if people were tracking the journey of Isildur, there is nothing to ensure that the Wardens would be looking at the exact time of the attack. Isildur reckoned to take 40 days to reach Imladris. The attack happened 13 days into that journey. As watching the Palantir was tiring work, and since no actual trouble was expected, no Warden would have looked at the King's company for several hours a day. Maybe a short daily check-up at most and the end of the day would not have been a good time for that.

And once a warden saw the fight with Orcs, it was highly unlikely he would get bored and stop looking - would you? The fight lasted for several hours and it has started in daylight, but then the night fell - and a palantir gets no image in darkness. However, weak as it is, there is still some light at night. Much more difficult (if at all possible) is to follow an invisible target. Maybe, ripples on the water from the swimming man could be visible. Or the observer just scanned both banks, when he noticed Isildur reappearing by the west bank? He was visible when they shot him.

You undermine your own theory here somewhat. The text in 'Disaster at the Gladden Fields' says the day was waning and the sun plunged behind clouds at the start of the attack so that the numbers of the orcs could only be guessed. Since the Palantirs can't see where there is no light, the Warden would see preciously little of the attack, if anything at all. Vague shadows at the most. Even if those images had been stored in the Orthanc Stone, Saruman couldn't possibly have gotten any useful information out of them.

And regardless of Menedil's feeling towards his uncle, if one of the Southern Wardens did report Isildur's demise to the Gondorean King, one would have expected some report of that in the Gondorean Library. Gandalf makes no mention of it, yet it would have been of vast importance during his search for information about the Ring. Never mind the significance of the Ring, Isildur's death or the attack on his company that led to the death of all its members would have in itself been worthy of mention.

Right. In the North only the Amon Sul stone was big enough to communicate with Gondor. That's why Amon Sul and its Stone was so hotly disputed between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rhudaur.

I had assumed the Amon Sul Stone was mostly disputed because Arthedain possessed already the Annuminas Stone and the Amon Sul stone was the only other available northern Stone which was much more (geographically) accessible to the other two Kingdoms. But you have a good point that not only it's position would have mattered but also the strenght of that particular Stone.

Of course, when everything was in place and worked properly, the Annuminas Stone could rely a message to Amon Sul, and this one to any small stone in Gondor (Minas Anor's one for instance).

Makes sense.

I am not disregarding the observation powers - they were handy. But they are unlikely to be of much use to find the Ring lying in darkness at the bottom of the river and covered in layers of sediment.

But Saruman may have had such hopes nevertheless. It is said that one could fine-tune the image seen in the Palantir down to a ring on a finger. Saruman would no doubt have been very confident at his abilities to direct the Palantir and he may have hoped to locate the Ring this way, or at least the remains of Isildur. Bones are more visible than a single jewel, and it was only far later than the wise theorised the Ring must have slipped of Isildur's hand in the first place. Who knows, Saruman may indeed have been able to find the Ring this way, had it not long since have been removed. He did in any case locate -through the Palantir or otherwise- Isildur's crownlet and the chain on which Isildur had hung the Ring.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And even if people were tracking the journey of Isildur, there is nothing to ensure that the Wardens would be looking at the exact time of the attack.

Look at it this way: the wardens of the big stones are busy people - they have large territories to survey, messages to relay etc. But the warden of Isengard stone has a smaller territory, out of the way and far from the High-ups. The passage of the High King through his territory is a big event, interesting to watch. So - he may have checked on Isildur more often than the wardens of the big stones.

You undermine your own theory here somewhat. The text in 'Disaster at the Gladden Fields' says the day was waning and the sun plunged behind clouds at the start of the attack so that the numbers of the orcs could only be guessed. Since the Palantirs can't see where there is no light, the Warden would see preciously little of the attack, if anything at all. Vague shadows at the most. Even if those images had been stored in the Orthanc Stone, Saruman couldn't possibly have gotten any useful information out of them.

You are correct as to the darkness or "gloom" as it is said in UT. We don't know it there were moonlight - maybe not. But still there is seldom absolute darkness even at night.

Originally Posted by Earniel

And regardless of Menedil's feeling towards his uncle, if one of the Southern Wardens did report Isildur's demise to the Gondorean King, one would have expected some report of that in the Gondorean Library. Gandalf makes no mention of it, yet it would have been of vast importance during his search for information about the Ring. Never mind the significance of the Ring, Isildur's death or the attack on his company that led to the death of all its members would have in itself been worthy of mention.

Isildur's death and the manner of it was known in Gondor - though the source is not told. Gandalf had spent much less time digging in Gondor library than Saruman.

Bones are more visible than a single jewel, and it was only far later than the wise theorised the Ring must have slipped of Isildur's hand in the first place. Who knows, Saruman may indeed have been able to find the Ring this way, had it not long since have been removed. He did in any case locate -through the Palantir or otherwise- Isildur's crownlet and the chain on which Isildur had hung the Ring.

I doubt there would be much left of Isildur's body in 3000 years. Fishes must have picked the bones clean and the bones must have decomposed in water.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

:
:
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I doubt there would be much left of Isildur's body in 3000 years. Fishes must have picked the bones clean and the bones must have decomposed in water.

I always thought Tolkien's implication is that, because of who he was - High King of the Dunedain, great man of Numenor, etc - that for some reason, his bones would have been expected to survive through the ages - for some reason against known laws otherwise observable.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I doubt there would be much left of Isildur's body in 3000 years. Fishes must have picked the bones clean and the bones must have decomposed in water.

Bog bodies!

[Curubethion]

Just a quick post to say...that's a really cool theory. Albeit the thread title made me laugh a little. HD palantri, what else can we come up with?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Just a quick post to say...that's a really cool theory. Albeit the thread title made me laugh a little. HD palantri, what else can we come up with?

Thanks! Well, "HD" is an easy way to explain the method of storage. The difference that I see is that one can erase images from a computer HD when it is full, but not from the Palantir's HD. When the latter starts to get full, the images are recorded at lower resolution.

[Curubethion]

You are aware that "HD" is the common abbreviation for "High-Definition"? Which just makes me chuckle, the idea of a Hi-Def Palantir.

[Gordis]

No, I am not... For me HD is "Hard Disk" only.