Tolkien Imponderables

[Wally]

Since the other thread on Tolkien's errors and anachronisms is ruffling some feathers, I thought I'd try one that should upset no one.

There are many issues in LOTR alone that bear discussion, for Tolkien provided no explanations. For example:

1. In Moria, what were the Drums in the Deep. i.e., what made the sound? And what made the sound of the hammer tapping that Gimli heard?
2. Also in Moria, why did Gandalf tell everyone not to drink any of the water found there?

[Rían]

I didn't see any ruffled feathers I saw some good comments, several people saying it was a good thread, and a polite disagreement with some points in an article. Carry on! (BOTH threads)

[me9996]

1. The drums in the deap are likely giant drums brought by the orcs, and the hammer is likely Gimlis imagenation.

2. Gandalf likely warned against drinking the water as the place was full of orcs and who knows what they might have put in the water.

[Jon S.]

I, too, see nothing but cool, positive banter on that other thread.

The drums are Ludwigs. The hammer is Maxwell's. Some believe it was pure mithril but it was actually just regular silver.

[durinsbane2244]

and the water was infested with beatles? yeah...

[Earniel]

Not drinking stagnant water in dark and dirty underground caves? Sounds like common sense to me.

[storm_krowe]

As far as what Gandalf planned beyond Moria, I think it would have been more likely that he, Frodo and Sam would have gone to Mordor, while sending at least Aragorn and Boromir to Minas Tirith. The whole point of Aragorn's journey was to take over kingship. As for how Gandalf would have sneaked in to Mordor, that's not certain, but remember, it was Gandalf who sneaked in to the "Necromancer's" hold when Sauron was in the North under a different guise. However Gandalf sneaked in there, he might have employed a similar ruse in Mordor.
Taken from Gandalf's words from the council of Elrond, his plans were surely to destroy the ring. (To paraphrase, we can't just drop it in the sea, because seas and lands change, we need to destroy it permanently.) As for Gandalf being the leader... those words referred to his leadership of the wizard's council instead Saruman... in which instance, the ring's discovery and destruction would likely have happened sooner, before Sauron again rose to such power.

[Olmer]

The whole point of Aragorn's journey was to USURP the kingship.
The crown and the throne are not things to be handed over to a bum with a dubious origin. He needed a lot of luck and a help which only a wizard could provide. Particulary, Gandalf.

Taken from Gandalf's words from the council of Elrond, his plans were surely to stay behind and watch what will happen to the ring. This demonstrates how "eager" he was to destroy the Ring.

Discovery of the Ring wouldn't change a thing for Sauron. Whatever explanations have been concocted by Gandalf are just his guess work. He did not know Sauron's intentions.
In fact, Sauron already has been govering Middle-earth. Without the Ring's help.
Is not it odd that all kingdoms of ME, exept a sparsely populated with people and elves South-Western part, were pledged loyalty not to Gondor, but to Sauron, and were fighting for him even after his downfall?
Sauron did not have a desire to use the Ring to rule Arda. What for? He was the Lord of Middle earth. He just has to sit back and watch the natural course of events: Аrnor fell apart, Gondor was withering away, herds of elves were packing theirs suitcases and going on the better pasture...
So, who was left out?"...

[Valandil]

Olmer... you're getting it all mixed up again.

Sauron was the BAD guy... Gandalf, Aragorn, the Elves... THEY were the good guys!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Sauron was the BAD guy... Gandalf, Aragorn, the Elves... THEY were the good guys!

Yeah! This is what hobbits were saying in theirs Red Book.
But this is only hobbit's point of view, which is, naturally, could be quite incomplete and inconsistent.

In the world is nothing White and Black, but much more as Gray, and the same facts can have another interpretations .
On the bookshelves in Rivendale and in the library of Minas-Tirith were other historical documents, which I happened to read.
As they say the historical recording usually varies depending on the point of view of the chronicler.

Tolkien himself has been trying to expand the information, by filling the gaps in his stories with his later writings and explanations, sometimes being himself very surprised by unexpected controverting interpretations of the events.
He just did not have enough time or energy to tie all loose ends up, othervise eventually he would see that "another side of the coin" of his stories is getting much more obvious with farther delving into his historical sources.

[Gordis]

I agree that Sauron didn't REALLY need the Ring to conquer ME. He was on the way to it and was preparing for the last war. But he was not yet ready in 3018. If not for the finding of the One, he would likely wait for some time (10 years, 300 years - who knows with those immortal ones? ) before attacking.
But once the One was found, he was afraid that someone - especially another Maia - would use it against him. So he started the war earlier than planned.

As for Gandalf's ORIGINAL plan for the quest I guess the following:

To Minas-Tirith: Aragorn, Gandalf, Boromir, Gimli, Legolas
To Mordor - the 4 hobbits and GOLLUM.

I am sure Gandalf planned to use Gollum as the guide very early in the game - once he learned that the wretch knew secret ways into Mordor. Four hobbits instead of two wouldn't be so vulnerable while travelling with him. Only hobbits were resistant to Ring enough to let them into Mordor.

Aragorn surely was meant to go to Minas Tirith to take the crown. Gandalf himself, most likely was going to go with him, I agree with Olmer. Boromir was to come with them - the idea was, I think, to turn him to Aragorn's side during the journey. (I guess in the divine Plan instead of Boromir it should have been Faramir, as Faramir was the one who saw the Dream many times and F was Gandalf's old pupil).
Gimli would be useless in Mordor - Drarwes were not famous for their stealth. And Gimli and Legolas were mostly observers, sent by their respective realms to make sure the Noldor and the Wise won't make a mess with the Rings of Power AGAIN. Both the Dwarves and Mirkwood Elves distrusted the White Counsil. So Gimli and Legolas would have made sure that the hobbits were well on their way, without any meddling Men or wizards or Noldor and then continue quietly to defend Minas Tirith.

I guess Gandalf asked Thranduil to let Gollum escape after some time. The Wizard needed him free and he knew that Gollum would catch up with them. Gandalf was not at all surprised to find Gollum in Moria - glad even.
Thranduil likely became suspicious about the whole story. Gandalf and Aragorn was using his Realm for their own ends, coming and going, bringing strange creatures and keeping him in the dark. And he was the closest neighbour of Dol Guldur for ages and was not even given a Ring of Power to defend himself. (Because really, guys, wasn't it fairer to give Narya to Thranduil?) So, I guess, one day Thranduil bristled - "tell me everything or else..." And the consensus was reached when Gandalf and Aragorn accepted Legolas as observer.

EDIT: Also, I guess that the plan to draw Sauron's gaze to Minas Tirith instead of his own borders was an early element of the plan. They had to provoke Sauron somehow to start the war early, once they were sure that the hobbits were at the borders of Mordor. As the story played out, they used then Palantir for that, but before they may have planned to attack Osgiliath or Ithilien, for instance, to draw Sauron's forces out.

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by Wally

In Moria, what were the Drums in the Deep. i.e., what made the sound? And what made the sound of the hammer tapping that Gimli heard?

Signals. In deep quiet, taps can travel a great distance through hard stone. Most likely, a goblin heard the pebble and the tapping was code for "Possible intruders. Wake Balrog."

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Sauron was able, though, to influence what Denethor was able to see with the palantir. (How I am not sure.)

Maybe he held the palantir out the window of Barad-Dur so that Denethor could see the vast armies Sauron was building? Denethor's despair was caused by seeing Sauron's armies and believing that there was no way to defend against them, and trying to ignore it instead of preparing.

Originally Posted by Olmer

The whole point of Aragorn's journey was to USURP the kingship.
The crown and the throne are not things to be handed over to a bum with a dubious origin. He needed a lot of luck and a help which only a wizard could provide. Particulary, Gandalf.

It is not usurping if he is indeed the rightful heir. However dubious you believe his origin to be, commanding the army from the Paths of the Dead means his blood was true and his claim to the throne valid. The line of Stewards had no right to withhold it.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Yeah! This is what hobbits were saying in theirs Red Book.
But this is only hobbit's point of view, which is, naturally, could be quite incomplete and inconsistent.

You know, if you don't accept what is in the canon as, well, canon, there is a limit to how profitable the discussion can be.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

With no advocates for the devil, the profitability of the discussion is likewise limited, IMO.

I like seeing things from the point of view of the "bad" guys sometimes, especially knowing that it's all in fun.

Just a comment on the existence of ESP/remote viewing/the human mind/etc. I'm of the opinion that it isn't a new ability that is developing but rather that it's an old ability that's diminishing. That is, unless/until we figure out what it's all about and find a way to nurture it again.

[slippolives]

In Moria, what were the Drums in the Deep. i.e., what made the sound?
I like to think it's the orcs communicating with each other, an alarm even, it seems a very good way to let others know that there was some sort of party in the enourmous underground complex. In fact drums are one of the earliest forms of communication and when European expeditions came into the jungles to explore the primeval forests, they were surprised to find that the message of their coming and their intention was carried through the woods a step in advance of their arrival.


And what made the sound of the hammer tapping that Gimli heard?
Well, maybe there was still some communication going on. Also, Middle Earth is a place where undead were common (Wights of the Barrow Down, Dead Men of Dunharrow, Ring Wraiths etc), Moria was massive with milleniums of history, and of course not completely explored, we only see and hear what the Fellowship sees and hears, so the mines and the empty former Khazad-dum dwarven mansions could be full of undead, or other types of creatures that have taken residense inside. Maybe the tapping was some sort of Dwarven ghost or wraith, possibly some rogue orcs that were mining, or an orc that was stationed in that section of the mine tapping out communications with some of the higher up's as a warning that intruders were heading west through the tunnels.

Also in Moria, why did Gandalf tell everyone not to drink any of the water found there?
Ok, the place is full of orcs and who knows what else.. which we find out later like the Watcher in the Water. Pretty good advice I would say. Gandalf had been there before and knew it was a dark foul smelling place with orcs and trolls drinking from and most likely using the water as underground bathrooms.