muslims PART 2

[Spock]

ok, go to it.

[Radagast The Brown]

How widespread and successful was this strategy? And again, I'm curious what your source on this is. I've always been taught that the anti-Semitism came from the German people wanting a scapegoat for their misfortune.

The Jews were better off than most Germans economically, because they had far better jobs and great mathematical skills. They were a source of resentment because of their success, when many Aryan Germans were in suffering. Hitler leveraged off of this natural resentment to persecute the Jews and turn anger into anti-Semitism. I've never heard the claim that the anti-Semitism was because of Christianity in any of the history studies I've had so far.

Lief, the Jews weren't more successful. That's what anti-semitic said back then, even though most Jews were poor at the time just like most other Germans, in order to increase the support in Hitler and in anti semitism.

About the reason for the hatred: I think it obviously has something to do with the "old" anti-semitism, from centuries ago. But now it was based more on "science" than "oh, no! the jews murdered Jesus! Let's kill them". (I think that officially, though, the Pope instructed not to murder or kill jews - but not to treat them equally) I don't really think Christinaity can be blamed.
On the other hand, the Pope never officially condemned Hitler's actions; I'm sure some lives could be saved in Catholic Poland had he said to save Jews.


About Islam: I read in an encyclopedia how it spread so fast, and they say that there wasn't a strong military force in the remnants of the Roman Empire, the old religions in the conquered lands were weak, and that the treatment the conquered people got was rather tolerant. Of course Jews or Chrisitans weren't treated equally to muslims, but neither did Jews in Europe. But the lives of Jews under Muslim reign were much better than the lives they had in Christian Europe at the time. (Especially during the crusades - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...d_the_Crusades)

[Grey_Wolf]

Muslim men have enormous difficulty in conforming to the customs of the country to which they move.

We have noticed this in Sweden where the men of the family are extremely obsessive of the daughters to the point of murdering them if they fall in love with a Swedish boy. Or if the daughters do not conform with the established customs of marrying the man which the family has decided they should marry and instead want go it alone and live like a Swede the family murder them for that reason.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

...... in Sweden where the men of the family are extremely obsessive of the daughters to the point of murdering them if they fall in love with a Swedish boy. Or if the daughters do not conform with the established customs of marrying the man .......and instead want go it alone and live like a Swede the family murder them for that reason.

another excellent example of the religion of tolerance and peace.

sincere thanks for that GW.

[Insidious Rex]

That happens on such a scale in Sweden as to be useful for anti-muslim propaganda?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

That happens on such a scale in Sweden as to be useful for anti-muslim propaganda?

Are you saying GW used it that way? I sure hope not! To me, it looked like an informative and on-topic observation of facts.

Marriage customs/practices would be interesting to discuss. In Judaism, from what I understand, women had the right of refusal, which was VERY counter-culture in ancient times. I don't think Muslim women have that right under their scriptures, do they?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Are you saying GW used it that way? I sure hope not! To me, it looked like an informative and on-topic observation of facts.

I dont think it was he who used it as pot-shot propaganda thanks.

And my question stands as legitimate. How often are swedish muslims killing their daughters? Willy nilly as this would suggest? Or is it an unusual case? Im curious.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Spock

another excellent example of the religion of tolerance and peace.

sincere thanks for that GW.

You're welcome, Spock.

[Lief Erikson]

I'll respond to you soon, Radagast. Just going to do some research, first.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Muslim men have enormous difficulty in conforming to the customs of the country to which they move.

We have noticed this in Sweden where the men of the family are extremely obsessive of the daughters to the point of murdering them if they fall in love with a Swedish boy. Or if the daughters do not conform with the established customs of marrying the man which the family has decided they should marry and instead want go it alone and live like a Swede the family murder them for that reason.

I know that Islam and Sharia Law have traditionally dictated a very submissive role for women, though many more liberal Muslims of modern times are doing away with such restrictions. Sharia Law probably is a factor.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

How about the Klu Klux Klan? A organization with all kinds of ties to protestant evangelicalism and arguably one of the pioneers of terrorism as we know it today?

You'd have to present some pretty good arguments and citations for me to believe that it's one of the pioneers of modern terrorism, though I do consider it to be a form of terrorism. I doubt very highly that Muslim terrorists have borrowed from their example.

However, I agree that the Ku Klux Klan is a very valid example of evil practiced by Christians.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You'd have to present some pretty good arguments and citations for me to believe that it's one of the pioneers of modern terrorism, though I do consider it to be a form of terrorism. I doubt very highly that Muslim terrorists have borrowed from their example.

I just want to be very clear here, are you implying that Modern terrorism = Muslim terrorists? I'm hoping I'm massively misinterpreting you here.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

*pops in*



He was also a democratically elected leader. Monarchy forever!

*disappears in a puff of smoke*

You really shouldn't do that, it makes yer butt look big.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I just want to be very clear here, are you implying that Modern terrorism = Muslim terrorists? I'm hoping I'm massively misinterpreting you here.

I don't deny that there are other non-Muslim terrorist groups. Muslim terrorists are the greatest terrorist threat to the world in general right now, however.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Is is a good deed if it is only specifically for white, christian, non-homosexual america? One good example. I challenge you. And it has to be good that was done for everyone's benefit, just as the terrorist actions against all the minority groups was harmful to the entire country's growth and collective psyche, the good deed must be beneficial in the same all-encompassing way.

When I said I thought they had done good deeds, I wasn't saying I thought they had done good for homosexuals and blacks. Neither was I trying to say that their good deeds equal the bad (Neither of us are in a position to judge this). But if they took out the trash for elderly white conservative women, that is a good act, whether they did it for blacks or not.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I just want to be very clear here, are you implying that Modern terrorism = Muslim terrorists? I'm hoping I'm massively misinterpreting you here.



You really shouldn't do that, it makes yer butt look big.

Only because it is.

*waggles his over-sized rear at BoP*

[Spock]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

How about the Klu Klux Klan? A organization with all kinds of ties to protestant evangelicalism and arguably one of the pioneers of terrorism as we know it today?

Well by way of explanation; the Klan was initially a beneficial organization, albeit with the desire to keep the races separate; it did many good works......sort of like Hamas today

[Lief Erikson]

Yes, I'm not saying the Klan is all bad either. It certainly has been responsible for horrible acts of terrorism, though.

[Spock]

Well, terrorism of basically one race as opposed to the modern day useage of the term terrorist who threatens all Americans. A fine point but one distinction that should be made.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Spock

Well by way of explanation; the Klan was initially a beneficial organization, albeit with the desire to keep the races separate; it did many good works......sort of like Hamas today

Originally Posted by Lief Ericson

Yes, I'm not saying the Klan is all bad either.

I - I'm sorry, did you two just say that the Ku Klux Klan was beneficial, not all that bad, and did many good works?

And how, exactly, is terrorism any less terrifying or destructive if and when it is "against a race" as opposed to "against Americans" - are african american people not American? They are. So, are you saying that only as long as terrorism is religiously based, and only comes from a muslim country or organisation, can it be technically classified as terrorism? Sorry guys, you have got it ALL wrong, both of you. A terrorist act can and is often american against american, too, irregardless or because of religion, or irregardless or because of race, or sexual orientation, or political affiliation, the list goes on. Terrorism is terrorism, it does not make one damn bit of difference if it comes from a place of spiritual hatred or racial hatred, or just plain old irrational, yet organised hatred.

But the Ku Klux Klan comments - *shakes head, incredulous* So tell me, what are these great benefits and good deeds the Ku Klux Klan have done for the good citizens of the United States of America? Aside from terrorizing an entire racial group of american citizens, on their own home soil, for over one hundred years, right up to the present moment? Do you even have any idea what it is the Klan actually is, or what they stand for, or how they begun? Or how many families they destroyed, how many people they tortured to death, burned alive & lynched and raped, etcetra and so on? It surprises me that some people may just not be aware. I gave you guys a couple links right here so you can read up on it; I'd try to find more but this little laptop I'm on is kind of time-consuming to navigate back & forth between pages. It already took me like half an hour just to compose this post! So anyway -

http://www.kkk.com/

Once America's preeminent terrorist organization, the Ku Klux Klan today is a fragmented and amorphous collection of independent groups and individuals, constantly squabbling over diminishing memberships and limited resources. Passed over by most young white supremacists, who consider Klansmen to be ineffectual and faintly ridiculous old-timers, the group presents far less of a threat to public order than at any time in the past century. Despite its dwindling influence, however, the Klan continues to be a specter that haunts the American psyche and the sight of a flaming cross can still inspire both horror and terror.

~ from the ADL Law Enforcement Agency Resource Network
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/KKK....cked=4&item=18

[Lief Erikson]

You're misinterpreting me and Spock I think, Lotesse.

I did not say they're "not all that bad." The acts of terrorism are inexcusable. I said that I'm not arguing they're "all bad," which means I'm leaving room for the possibility they've done some good as well (My research of the Klan, unfortunately, hasn't expanded beyond their violence and rise to power and influence, so I haven't studied beneficial aspects of the Klan). I personally suspect Spock is right. Often people will do both good and bad. Christopher Columbus would be one example. He discovered America, which pleases me greatly , but he horribly abused natives, which was simply evil. Often life is a mix. Everyone does some bad in their lives, some more than others, but I doubt that anyone has existed who has done no good. And I suspect Spock is right about the Klan having done some good too- just as Hamas has.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And how, exactly, is terrorism any less terrifying or destructive if and when it is "against a race" as opposed to "against Americans" - are african american people not American? They are.

I would prefer it if Muslim extremists viewed just me as evil, than if they viewed all the world as evil. It would be better that way. In the same way, if the terrorists view just African Americans as evil, I'd prefer it if they did that rather than view everyone who disagrees with their ideology as evil. They're willing to kill more people and do more damage the way things currently stand. It's a worse philosophy. The other is horrible as well. If it's just one murder, that's horrible. Yet if it's several million murders, that's an even more dangerous philosophy. And if it's several billion murders, that's an even more dangerous philosophy. Though they're all evil.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

So, are you saying that only as long as terrorism is religiously based, and only comes from a muslim country or organisation, can it be technically classified as terrorism?

No way. The Christian Ku Klux Klan is a terrorist organization, and it draws on the Bible also to support its ideology. I've studied their racist arguments that try to say the Bible supports racism a bit myself, and it's very sad and sickening. And I hate the slurs the Klan has made against Martin Luther King Jr. It's all so sickening.

[The last sane person]

*peers into a thread entitled 'Muslims' and finds not a one. Only heated theological ideas* Hmm, something seems out of place here.

Not that I am a Muslim myself though, I dare say I know a bit more about them then a great majority of you combined. Before I make a plunge into this... Odiferous stew, I'll wait a while for a few more pages.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

This brought tears to my eyes: http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...ss,-servi.aspx