The Ban - why?

[Gordis]

I would like to hear your opinon on the Ban of the Valar, the Ban to sail West from Numenor and to approach Valinor.

Why was it needed?
Why couldn't Numenoreans visit Valinor?

[brownjenkins]

I think they were afraid the Numenoreans would envy the beauty and eternal beauty of Valinor and this might somehow lessen their appreciation for the rest of middle earth. Though most of the blame for that can be laid at the feet of the Valar for choosing to stay so removed and on Eru for being so vague with his creations about what their existance was really about. A common mistake made by creator-types.

In retrospect, I think the Valar might have been better served remaining more active throughout middle earth. That way humans would better understand the pros and cons of eternal existance.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I would say to prevent what happened happening. I don't think Valinor provided immortality (it was being discussed somewhere), so the Numenoreans would have still blamed the Valar from withholding immortality from them.

[Earniel]

Personally I think the Valar realised they made a mistake earlier to bring all the Elves they could find to Valinor and leave the rest of Middle-earth to itself. A mistake they didn't want to make with the Second-born as well.

Middle-earth was made for the Children of Eru, for them to live. If the Númenoreans also came to Valinor they most likely became too enamoured with it. They had to be able to go their own way, discover what shores and mysteries Middle-earth held, not Valinor.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Personally I think the Valar realised they made a mistake earlier to bring all the Elves they could find to Valinor and leave the rest of Middle-earth to itself. A mistake they didn't want to make with the Second-born as well.

But they did it already with the Second-born as well! They have taken the best of Men away on a safe island, causing the Dark years in ME.

If the Númenoreans also came to Valinor they most likely became too enamoured with it. They had to be able to go their own way, discover what shores and mysteries Middle-earth held, not Valinor

They could have been accorded a tourist visa, not residence permits, could they?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But they did it already with the Second-born as well! They have taken the best of Men away on a safe island, causing the Dark years in ME.

But the Edain still could travel freely between Númenor and Middle-earth, a privilege the Eldar didn't even have in their Age of Dominion. (I'm told it's always easier being the youngest child in a family, you freely get permission for things your older sibling had to beg his/her parents for. Of course I wouldn't know, being the youngest myself. )

It may well be that the Valar intended for the three clans of Edain to be the teachers and protectors for the rest of the Men in Middle-earth. And seen as much of the land west of the Blue Mountains was destroyed, it seems logical the Valar provided the Edain a safe home. Within the bounds of Númenor the Edain could regain strength and numbers they lost during the dark years of the First Age.

I sincerely doubt the Valar intended the rest of Middle-earth to experience dark times. Maybe the Valar didn't forsee Sauron rising so soon again. Or if they did, and wanted to limit their own interventions (seen the damage it did to the country the last time) they may have counted on Númenor to become strong enough to be able to defeat Sauron without help from Valinor from now on. Númenor did eventually prove strong enough for Sauron to realise he wouldn't be able to stop them by force.

In the general designs of things, I think the Valar reckoned it in the end is better for a child to learn to fight its own battles, then have its warden or parent fight them for him.

The Valar made sure Númenor knew the arts of sailing and loved the sea so much they would never hole up in Númenor and never think about the Eastern shores of the world. In this, at least the, Valar didn't make the same mistake again as they made with the Eldar. Instead, sadly, they made some new ones...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I would say to prevent what happened happening. I don't think Valinor provided immortality (it was being discussed somewhere), so the Numenoreans would have still blamed the Valar from withholding immortality from them.

The Ban actually caused the first murmurs in Numenor, even before there had been the issue with immortality.

And since we have mastered all seas, and no water is so wild or so wide that our ships cannot overcome it, why should we not go to Avallónë and greet there our friends?'-Akkalabeth

Just think on it: The Valar through their messengers assure Kings Ciryatan and Atanamir, that there is no immortality for Men in Valinor. They could have proved their words by allowing Men to visit and find it out themselves. But no, no admittance.
Why? Nobody understands. Soon whispers start: they don't want us to become immortal. And when almost everybody believes that, Sauron comes.

But they "fell" again - because of a Ban, or prohibition, inevitably.L #155

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I would like to hear your opinon on the Ban of the Valar, the Ban to sail West from Numenor and to approach Valinor.

Why was it needed?
Why couldn't Numenoreans visit Valinor?

I think it's along the same reasons as why I can't keep See's chocolates in my house. Someone could say, "I'll bring over a pound of See's chocolates to Rian's house - she doesn't have to eat them, she can just look at them."

Well, fat chance! (literally) I can avoid BUYING chocolates, but if they're here, it's very hard to avoid EATING them, even though I know they're bad for me.

As was discussed in another thread, Valinor would destroy humans if they stayed there. I think humans, if they were allowed to visit, couldn't avoid staying there, just like I can't avoid eating chocolates if they're in my house. And that would destroy them.

[Gordis]

If we continue chocolate example:

Suppose the Valar bring you a ton of best chocolate - you eat ... well ..3-10 kilos and then, I assure you, you won't be able to look at chocolates for a VERY long time.

Numenor was a fair place, but still the people become restless. That is the way of Men. They wouldn't be sitting idly in the bliss of Valinor, once they discover that it doesn't give them immortality. They will see, that the place is beautiful, but very dull. One must be a Vanya Elf to appreciate it. Humans will soon grow sick of it.

[Rían]

You underestimate the power of desire!

Humans may grow sick of it, but somehow, I don't think that would make them leave. The fear of death would keep them there, I think ...

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I would like to hear your opinon on the Ban of the Valar, the Ban to sail West from Numenor and to approach Valinor.

Why was it needed?
Why couldn't Numenoreans visit Valinor?

..er ..Gor - last time i was around: weren't we Banned from discussing this???

course that was the ban of the Val ...

Wotcha! Val - how ya diddling?

hmm - ain't got time to read this just yet - but i look forward to joining in one day soonish!

but very off the top of me head:


... maybe they were affraid of the common cold, or bird flu?

... or man's bad taste in haircuts?

... or that man would bring over bad-taste and wall-cladding or net curtains?

maybe they were really no Valar at all - it was all some wizard of Oz type bloke in a room full of levers?

... maybe the Numenoreans were the Chavs of the western world, and the Valar were a bit uppitty or snobbish?

personally i think it was because they smelt of garlic ... but that's just my view ...

best all, BB

[The Gaffer]

Think of em like lottery winners, guzzling chip butties and Diamond White at Glyndebourne, shouting at each other across the royal box. ( )

Or pikeys setting up their caravans in the Garden of Eden?

So, The Valar = Daily Mail readers? Cut their benefits, ban singing the National Anthem in Spanish, etc.

Actually, no, far less extreme than that. They just dumped a mountain on their heads.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

..er ..Gor - last time i was around: weren't we Banned from discussing this???

We were "banned" from discussing this in the LOTR discussion thread because it was off-topic. You know it as well as I do, BB.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

A better question might be: how would the vision and unfolding of the world have been if Melkor had not caused discord in the music.

Sister Golden Hair recently posed this question in the Eru/Fate thread. I think it applies to the discussion in this thread.

I have been wondering for a while if Men would actually “burn out” faster in Valinor than in Middle Earth. What evidence do we have for this? When Men first reach Beleriand, and came into contact with Valinorean Elves, their life spans actually increased. No doubt most of the reason for this was wisdom gained from the Noldor and Grey Elves. But if living among powerful immortals, in the lands that they have made their own, caused Men to age more quickly, then maybe this increase in knowledge would have been offset in regards to life span.

I believe Sister Golden Hair’s question brings up a better argument though. If Melkor hadn’t put evil in the world, then wouldn’t Middle Earth have been very similar to Valinor. Not exactly the same, of course, but quite possibly equally umm...grand.

Would Men die more quickly in this Middle Earth? Or, maybe Melkor’s marring is the reason that Men would weary early in Valinor and, obviously, this marring wouldn’t exist in an evil-free Middle Earth. I think it is clear that these questions tie into the Ban discussion.

[jammi567]

i'm not sure whether this has been mentened already or not, but i think the Valar put the ban on them because they had some forehand knowledge that they knew Mens lusts would make them want immortality for themselves if they saw what they coud do if they were immortal. Also, it might be almost like gollums and bilbos experiences when they had the Ring for a long time.

[Gordis]

Interesting question, CAB.

It may be a heresy, but I think that without Melkor's discord there would be no place fit for Men to live. All the ME would have been like Valinor. One has to be a Vania Elf to like this at a long run. Even Noldor grew sick of it. And Men were completely unsuitable for a static world.

So, only thanks to Melkor, and later Sauron the World of Men came into being.

By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CAB

I have been wondering for a while if Men would actually “burn out” faster in Valinor than in Middle Earth.

No; they would be more protected from the marring of Melkor while in Aman; but the power of the valar can't modify their lifespan.

Originally Posted by CAB

If Melkor hadn’t put evil in the world, then wouldn’t Middle Earth have been very similar to Valinor. Not exactly the same, of course, but quite possibly equally umm...grand.

I agree:

Originally Posted by Of the begining of days, Chapter I, Silmarillion

Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.

There is a more relevant passage about the similarity of Aman with Arda Unmarred, I think in Myths Transformed I believe, I hope I shall find it.

Originally Posted by CAB

Or, maybe Melkor’s marring is the reason that Men would weary early in Valinor and, obviously, this marring wouldn’t exist in an evil-free Middle Earth

Men don't actually wear out more quickly in the blessed realms; they only perceive that their lifespan is less than that of most (if not all) of the other beings there, who age in accordance with the valian time units, not those of the sun.

Originally Posted by jammi567

i think the Valar put the ban on them because they had some forehand knowledge that they knew Mens lusts would make them want immortality for themselves if they saw what they coud do if they were immortal

Much of what Men thought living in Aman would give them was a deceit from Sauron.

Originally Posted by Aman and mortal Men, Myths Transformed, HoME X

No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright'.

Originally Posted by Gordis

It may be a heresy, but I think that without Melkor's discord there would be no place fit for Men to live

Living in a Aman-like Middle-Earth would be unfit for Men only if the "blessing of Aman" (unweariness of the body) was granted to them. In that case, the Man would suffer greatly or would become beast-like. But this "blessing of Aman" was given only to the elves, who had a different kind of hroa and destiny.

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.

As a side note, Manwe listening to Eru is stated by Tolkien to be more than wisdom.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.

Yes, but I suppose that both descriptions could be accurate in this case. They did manage to avoid most of the trouble (except the War of Wrath) that other Elves and Men found themselves in.