Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?

[CrazySquirrel]

Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?

I don't think that was discussed before... But really: Why?
The reasons Gandalf and Elrond gave seem strange to me - they waited for the return of the scouts they sent.
But the time they lost in Rivendell (from the end of October till the end of December- TWO MONTHS!!) allowed their enemies to consolidate. The nazgul had time to return to Mordor. Orcs came to Moria from the South, possibly from Mordor. Saruman had time to pick the fellowship's trail. And the winter had come, covering the Redhorn pass with snow.

Wasn't it a bad mistake to stay that long?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well as stated to make sure that all the Nazgûl had been partially destroyed and forced back to Mordor, and that would have taken a long time for the sons of Elrond went to Rhûn IIRC.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well as stated to make sure that all the Nazgûl had been partially destroyed and forced back to Mordor, and that would have taken a long time for the sons of Elrond went to Rhûn IIRC.

I don't think they went to Rhun, only to Lorien.

And the nazgul horses (8 of the 9 ) were found dead not that far downstream. That meant that the nazgul had to walk to Mordor. And the fellowship, instead of setting out immediately, gave them the necessary time to get to Mordor with the news and to sent orcs to Moria and to Path Galen! Not to mention that SOMEONE flying obverhead - wasn't it a nazgul on a Fell beast? spotted them before the Redhorn pass and perhaps "organized' the storm!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes, I've just checked, they did not go to Rhûn. Yet some did go to Mirkwood, which would have taken some time.

Originally Posted by Gandalf

We can't start until we have found out about the Riders

So not all was certain.

[CrazySquirrel]

Oh, yes,, and by the end of December it was certain: the nazgul were safely in Mordor and horsed (and even "fellbeasted" ).

[Jon S.]

Because the food, drink, and entertainment was top-notch?

Actually, all of the above is true but the actual answer has already been quoted and can be summed up as, "Haste makes waste."

[Olmer]

CrazySquirrel

I don't think they went to Rhun, only to Lorien.

Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

CrazySquirrel Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

Do recall though that the Ettenmoors once formed a part of the kingdom of Angmar, did the WK (I call him Marvin) return north rather than go to Mordor after being unhorsed, and there have a troop or more at his beck and call ready to come down on Rivendell? How do you know unless you go look?

As for waiting for the scouts, rather than send the company out and let the scouts meet them: that's not a good idea. Let's say the company sets out and crosses the same pass that Bilbo and company did, and they find out the pass is held against them, then they have to go back and find another pass, and in the meantime the scouts who went that direction miss them....then they have no news, no one knows where they went, and there is no one looking for them to help along the way. Poor plan.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Olmer

CrazySquirrel Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

This is a brilliant insight, one I can't believe after all these years I never previously considered at all, thanks for sharing it.

Perhaps among the reasons Elrond felt the need to consult with Galadrial was his understanding that if the quest was successful, the destruction of the One Ring would mean the destruction also of Lothlorien when, as a result, the Three Rings lost their powers to preserve against decay. That being the case, he may have felt obligated, even if as a formality, to obtain Galadrial's consent to the mission.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

According to Haldir, a great troop of orcs came to Moria. Did Haldir state they came from Sauron or from Dol Guldur or from the force that one of the Nazgul had opposite Rohan? No? Then claiming that Sauron did in fact send them is imposing your own opinion on the text isn't it? Does Haldir tell us that they came from Saruman? No? Thought not. Does Haldir tell us where the orcs have originated from? No? You mean they could have come from elsewhere than Sauron? HMMM, the mind boggles at this gap. (that was a tiny sneer, yes). I will further point out that EVEN IF the great troop of orcs was from Sauron, it doesn't follow that a) Sauron had not been sending such troops there for some time in preparation for his assaults on Lorien and b) that it was in any way related to the Fellowship--do remember that it was suggested that the delay of the company allowed such reinforcements to happen. There is no indication in what Tolkien actually wrote that the two events are in any way connected. And as I pointed out, there were already orcs and a balrog there, I doubt that this new troop changed the outcome of the Fellowship's journey through Moria in any way.

Don't let your mind boggle, you can find the connections if you look for them in the books.

Firstly Haldir said the orcs came from the South: that means, either from Mordor, or Isengard, or even from Dol Guldur, if they crossed the River at the field of Celebrant. OK? Or you think they were from Minas Tirith?

Secondly, they were either Sauron's or Saruman's. Gandalf described the ones near the Chamber of Mazarbul as "black uruks of Mordor"

'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. `And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are hanging back, but there is something else there. A great cave-troll, I think, or more than one. There is no hope of escape that way.'

Aragorn didn't gainsay it. He saw the Isengardians for the first time later, at Path Galen. The difference was discussed at this point; it was considerable. And Gandalf spent more than a month on the roof of Orthank: shouldn't he know how the Izengardians look?

So my conclusion: they were from Mordor.

Olmer, if you state they were from Isengard, could you provide a quote, please?


Now did the new troop change the balance of forces in Moria? And were they sent there in relation with the Fellowship?

UT: The hunt for the ring
What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria, (11) especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have he could only get by thieving dangerously. No doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward,

(11) These were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers. [Author's note.]

The passage above tells us of the situation in Moria in summer 3018. "NOT very numerous". It doesn't sound like a "great troop of orcs", does it?

So between the summer and the winter 3018, the Moria garrison was noticeably reinforced. It might be either connected with Gollum, or with the news of the Ring Quest. Considering the fact that the attacking orc in the Mazarbul fight went directly and unerringly for Frodo, I believe the latter.

And then: Elladan and Elrohir were in Lorien, in late October-November 3018. Why didn't they bring back the news of the great troop of orcs coming to Moria? Because they didn't. Gandalf has no idea of the situation in Moria:

If there are Orcs there, it may prove ill for us, that is true. But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.-LOTR

So, I believe, either Galadriel decided to keep the news to herself - did she, Olmer?, or the orc host came AFTER Elladan and Elrohir left Moria.- in late November. Then the chance that its arrival is connected with the nazgul report about the Fellowship increases.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Do recall though that the Ettenmoors once formed a part of the kingdom of Angmar, did the WK (I call him Marvin) return north rather than go to Mordor after being unhorsed, and there have a troop or more at his beck and call ready to come down on Rivendell? How do you know unless you go look?

As Olmer has quite correctly pointed out, the lands of the Ettenmoors were almost empty by TA 3018.

Apart from that, recall that the Witch-King had previously laid siege to Rivendell (1409) and, although he had all the army of Angmar with him, still he failed to take it. You think by 3018 he had developed a severe nazgul amnesia? Could he hope to assail Rivendell with a troop of vagabonds collected in Ettenmoors?,

Here is my "modicum of silliness"

[CrazySquirrel]

Sorry, this post is meant to overcome the new page bug

[durinsbane2244]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

The nazgul had time to return to Mordor.

well, the nazgul gettin back to mordor gets them out of the way of the fellowship for a bit, eh?

[The Wizard from Milan]

I agree that the Fellowship stayed too long in Rivendell, but that does not seem peculiar to Rivendell; they also spent one month in Lorien.
(And let's not foget Frodo reclutance in leaving Hobbinton)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Without some prophecy or precognition of when was the right time to get the ring to MT Doom, of which we have no indicia, the two month delay in Rivendell is inexplicable from a strategic or tactical standpoint. They should have set out beh9nd the scouts a soon as frodo was travelable. The scout if they run into any hazzard, should fall back on their out from Rivendell and would thus meet and warn the fellowship. Olmer's theory above is the only one that adds even small partial sense to the delay. he has now got me 10% suspecious of an Elvish plot.

[CrazySquirrel]

I agree with Olmer. The quest had to be OK'd by Galadriel before they set out.

It looks like the Ring came as a complete surprise to Erlond. Perhaps he first heard of the Ring being found from Gandalf, some days before Frodo was brought to Rivendell. The "old manipulator' never told about it to his colleagues (the other bearers of the Three) before! I imagine what Elrond said to Gandalf when he told him the news!

And then counsil went after counsil, and "the boys", Elladan and Elrohir, were sent to their granny to ask her opinion - perhaps even some days before Frodo appeared in Rivendell. And Galadriel said "bring it to me!' and started musing what would she do if she had the One... That would explain the second (one month) delay, in Lorien. She just couldn't bring herself to let the Ring out of her claws.

And don't you think they might have been looking for Gollum? Gandalf knew they needed him to complete the quest.

[Serenoli]

do you know, it actually seems quite plausible... I mean, the twin sons had "an errand that they would speak of to no one but their father", and that sounds like an elaborate family conspiracy, doesn't it?

btw, an odd thing I just remembered about the council... how come no one offered to be the Ring-bearer, and there was such a frightful long silence before Frodo offered? Surely the Ring would be exercising a lot of charm around itself... how come no one asked to carry the Ring? it just puzzles me...

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I agree with Olmer. The quest had to be OK'd by Galadriel before they set out.

It looks like the Ring came as a complete surprise to Erlond. Perhaps he first heard of the Ring being found from Gandalf, some days before Frodo was brought to Rivendell. The "old manipulator' never told about it to his colleagues (the other bearers of the Three) before! I imagine what Elrond said to Gandalf when he told him the news!

I doubt it. If Aragorn knew surely Elrond knew too. Where do you get the idea that Elrond was surprised by the Ring?

And then counsil went after counsil, and "the boys", Elladan and Elrohir, were sent to their granny to ask her opinion - perhaps even some days before Frodo appeared in Rivendell.

Considering they show up after dinner the night before, they would have to have gone quite a while before.

And Galadriel said "bring it to me!' and started musing what would she do if she had the One...

Then why not take a more direct route, surely to get it to Galadriel one needn't the Fellowship or even Frodo, and all the waiting.

That would explain the second (one month) delay, in Lorien. She just couldn't bring herself to let the Ring out of her claws.

I don't know, after a month of traveling on foot, cold food, escaping near death experiences, and losing a loved one on whom one depended, I think I wouldn't mind a month to mourn and then regain my strength for the next push myself. Perhaps you're made of sterner stuff.

FB

[Spock]

why did they stay so long?

..."such was the virtue of the land of Rivendell that soon all fear and anxiety was lifted from their minds. The future, good or ill, was not forgotten, but ceased to have any power over the present. ......taking pleasure with every meal and in every word and song.....so the days slipped away.......

All that has been said about what others were doing is fine but I think the above captures the reason for The Fellowship staying so long.

[Nurvingiel]

I don't know why Gandalf wasn't eager to go. Wasn't he Sauron's enemy in Middle-earth? What better way to foil Sauron than to help destroy the One Ring?

However, recall the scene on Caradrhas where he lights a fire for the freezing Fellowship ( ) with magic and says unhappily, "If that isn't a better way to say 'Gandalf was here' than I don't know what is." (Or something.)

I think Gandalf was reluctant to go because his presence, if discovered, would tip off Sauron and/or agents of Mordor that this activity, whatever it was, was worth keeping an Eye on. () That was the last thing that the Fellowship would need!

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

I agree that the Fellowship stayed too long in Rivendell, but that does not seem peculiar to Rivendell; they also spent one month in Lorien.
(And let's not foget Frodo reclutance in leaving Hobbinton)

I agree TWFM, I think it's mostly a matter of how easy it is to lose track of time with the immortal Elves.

However, Elrond should have known better. He had the big picture and knew of the urgency of the quest. Frodo in Hobbiton didn't really know if drastically and almost irrevercably leaving his home was the right course of action.