Túrin and Nienor

Lalaith · 01-19-2003, 10:02 AM

I'm really missing a thread about two of my favourite characters: Túrin and Nienor. Their story is just that gorgeous and romantic. I love it.
In the Book of Lost Tales it was written, that the both of them, after their death, were invited to live in Valinor.
What do you think? Are you for or against the love of the two sisters?

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-19-2003, 10:39 AM

Turin was a girl!

Against. I'd much rather he falls in love with Finduilas. Damn Glaurung. And don't take the stuff from BoLT into the new Sil. legendarium. THe BoLT work is too old to be considred (apart from the FoG) part of the 'canon' and in line with the Sil and LOTR.Just like the early drafts of LOTR, (HoME volumes 6-9)

And, no they wouldn't have fallen in love, hence both of their suicides.

Lalaith · 01-19-2003, 01:53 PM

Oh, sorry, my mistake. Turin is a MAN. I meant between brother and sister.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-19-2003, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
I'm really missing a thread about two of my favourite characters: Túrin and Nienor. Their story is just that gorgeous and romantic. I love it.
In the Book of Lost Tales it was written, that the both of them, after their death, were invited to live in Valinor.
What do you think? Are you for or against the love of the two sisters?

The BoLTs is the older mythology. As for the relationship between Turin and Nienor, I found nothing gorgeous or romantic about it. It was a terrible tragedy that should not and would not have happened but for the evils of Glaurung. Very sad.

Lalaith · 01-19-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

The BoLTs is the older mythology. As for the relationship between Turin and Nienor, I found nothing gorgeous or romantic about it. It was a terrible tragedy that should not and would not have happened but for the evils of Glaurung. Very sad.

I know that BolT is actually too old to refer to, but I still love the story of Túrin and Nienor in the Silmarillion. I do think that it is romantic, because the fall in love with each other so deeply. But, you're right, it is as well very tragic and the question, wether they should be together or not teared me apart.
I mean they loved each other, so they should be together, but on the other hand they are brother and sister so it is only logical that they should not be together as husband and wife.
But there comes another question to my mind (it's to long ago to remember it exactly), but why has Nienor made suicide? Was it because of Túrins death (at least she thought he was dead) or was it because she was pregnant of her brother?

Dúnedain · 01-19-2003, 04:20 PM

Is this the story where the sister goes looking for her brother and then finds him, however there is a spell that doesn't let her recognize him, and then they wed. Then later on they find out they are siblings and she throws herself off a cliff and he impales himself or something like that???

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-19-2003, 04:20 PM

After Glaurung released her from his spell and her memory was restored, and she realized that Turin was her brother and that she carried his child, Nienor leapt to her death.

markedel · 01-19-2003, 09:46 PM

What is FoG?

Artanis · 01-20-2003, 04:53 AM

The Fall of Gondolin, perhaps?

Lalaith · 01-20-2003, 08:40 AM

So has anybody here actually read BolT? I haven't meet many people who have read it!
And I don't think Túrin was a bad person, he actually did a very good job although this spell was on him.

Melkor's significant othe · 01-20-2003, 09:33 AM

I've read both BoLT 1& 2. They are an excellent read. Like the whole HoME series. (which I haven't yet finished....I got all the books as a present for Xmas!) The extra details you get concerning the Valar, the Battles of Beleriand and far longer narratives about the early elves/men encounters. Plus seeing how Sauron evolved from a prince of cats! Tiveldo. I thorughly recommend getting the BoLT for their wonderful stories. The account of the time and its' units (days,months,years) being created by the 3 wizards of Eru had me lost for words. Imagining Tulkas's 7 mighty people hauling the cables that controlled the passing years....fantastic!

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-20-2003, 10:21 AM

Yes FoG is the Fall of Gondolin. was there love really 'pure' or 'sweet'? Turin was under a curse and the spell of Glaurung, which clearly miffed him up, and Nienor was also under a spell of Glaurung. I think it was fate more then anything else. Turin and Finduilas would have expressed the fact that they had feelings for each other (though it was obvious to all) if it wasn't for Melkor's curse, which was pretty much screwing up Turin's life.

Falagar · 01-20-2003, 11:14 AM

I love FoG in BoLT2. It's a really good story, and I liked it much better than that shortend story in the Silm.

Lalaith · 01-20-2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

was there love really 'pure' or 'sweet'? Turin was under a curse and the spell of Glaurung, which clearly miffed him up, and Nienor was also under a spell of Glaurung. I think it was fate more then anything else.

I still think that their love was pure and sweet. Although the spell was on both of them, they were themselves and not another person and so they fell in love with the character of the other. That has nothing to do with a spell (in my opinion). I mean, the spell could not change their personality, only their luck.
But I think it is possible that it was fate that they fall in love. Nobody knows what the Valar or even Iluvatar want to achieve with something.

Lalaith · 01-20-2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

I've read both BoLT 1& 2. They are an excellent read. Like the whole HoME series.

I'm just finishing BoLT 2. I think I'll have to read the 10 other late published books, but I don't think that they are available in german.
What I wanted to ask is: Are the 10 other books, older stories in the style of BoLT or are they more current like LotR?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-20-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
I still think that their love was pure and sweet. Although the spell was on both of them, they were themselves and not another person and so they fell in love with the character of the other. That has nothing to do with a spell (in my opinion). I mean, the spell could not change their personality, only their luck.
But I think it is possible that it was fate that they fall in love. Nobody knows what the Valar or even Iluvatar want to achieve with something.

Don't forget that at the time that this took place, Hurin was being held captive by Morgoth and his kin was under a curse. Some events that happened to Turin I think happened because of his pride, others happened because of this curse and was completely due to Morgoth and his servants.

BeardofPants · 01-20-2003, 02:19 PM

No, I don't think their love was pure and sweet. They were both - as SGH said - under the curse of the house of Hurin. How can their love be pure, if they were blinded? Turin should have ended up with Finduilas.

And yes, I've read BoLT 1 and 2.

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-20-2003, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
I still think that their love was pure and sweet. Although the spell was on both of them, they were themselves and not another person and so they fell in love with the character of the other. That has nothing to do with a spell (in my opinion). I mean, the spell could not change their personality, only their luck.
But I think it is possible that it was fate that they fall in love. Nobody knows what the Valar or even Iluvatar want to achieve with something.

Falling in love with your judgement clouded and whislt you are under a curse, whilst the creator of all evil laughs at your incestous antics, is not true love. In my opinion. Remember Gwindor's dying words to Turin, that if he doesn't save Finduilas, then his doom (the curse) will not fail to find him. A message form Eru, possibly?

Lalaith · 01-21-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Don't forget that at the time that this took place, Hurin was being held captive by Morgoth and his kin was under a curse. Some events that happened to Turin I think happened because of his pride, others happened because of this curse and was completely due to Morgoth and his servants.

Okay, first, yeah maybe some things happened because of Túrins pride (the falling of Nargothrond), but I also think that most of the fatal pride can be traced back to Morgoth's spell.
But I still believe, that in some way they were able to think free and that their minds were not completely "blacked".
I mean, Túrin always knew that there was something wrong with him and that his unlucky fate was unnatural and Nienor felt that too, deep in her heart.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-21-2003, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
Okay, first, yeah maybe some things happened because of Túrins pride (the falling of Nargothrond), but I also think that most of the fatal pride can be traced back to Morgoth's spell.
But I still believe, that in some way they were able to think free and that their minds were not completely "blacked".
I mean, Túrin always knew that there was something wrong with him and that his unlucky fate was unnatural and Nienor felt that too, deep in her heart.

When I refered to Turin's pride, I was refering to the incident surrounding the death of Searos and his stubborness to return to Doriath for one. He would hold some blame for the fall of Nargothrond, but much of that goes to that idiot Orodreth, and some could be attributed to the Curse of Hurin.

As for this incestuous relationship, again, they were not in their right minds until they were released from the spell of the dragon, which is what lead to their deaths. Think about it. If they were truly in love with one another, then why would they feel the need to kill themselves once they realized they were brother and sister?

01-19-2003, 10:02 AM	#1
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	Túrin and Nienor I'm really missing a thread about two of my favourite characters: Túrin and Nienor. Their story is just that gorgeous and romantic. I love it. In the Book of Lost Tales it was written, that the both of them, after their death, were invited to live in Valinor. What do you think? Are you for or against the love of the two sisters? __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

01-19-2003, 01:53 PM	#3
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	Oh, sorry, my mistake. Turin is a MAN. I meant between brother and sister. __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

01-19-2003, 04:20 PM	#6
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Is this the story where the sister goes looking for her brother and then finds him, however there is a spell that doesn't let her recognize him, and then they wed. Then later on they find out they are siblings and she throws herself off a cliff and he impales himself or something like that??? __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

01-19-2003, 04:20 PM	#7
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	After Glaurung released her from his spell and her memory was restored, and she realized that Turin was her brother and that she carried his child, Nienor leapt to her death. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-19-2003, 09:46 PM	#8
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	What is FoG? __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

01-19-2003, 10:39 AM	#2
Inderjit Sanghera Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England. Posts: 260	Turin was a girl! Against. I'd much rather he falls in love with Finduilas. Damn Glaurung. And don't take the stuff from BoLT into the new Sil. legendarium. THe BoLT work is too old to be considred (apart from the FoG) part of the 'canon' and in line with the Sil and LOTR.Just like the early drafts of LOTR, (HoME volumes 6-9) And, no they wouldn't have fallen in love, hence both of their suicides.

01-20-2003, 04:53 AM	#9
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	The Fall of Gondolin, perhaps? __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-20-2003, 08:40 AM	#10
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	So has anybody here actually read BolT? I haven't meet many people who have read it! And I don't think Túrin was a bad person, he actually did a very good job although this spell was on him. __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

01-20-2003, 09:33 AM	#11
Melkor's significant othe Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK, Manchester Posts: 40	I've read both BoLT 1& 2. They are an excellent read. Like the whole HoME series. (which I haven't yet finished....I got all the books as a present for Xmas!) The extra details you get concerning the Valar, the Battles of Beleriand and far longer narratives about the early elves/men encounters. Plus seeing how Sauron evolved from a prince of cats! Tiveldo. I thorughly recommend getting the BoLT for their wonderful stories. The account of the time and its' units (days,months,years) being created by the 3 wizards of Eru had me lost for words. Imagining Tulkas's 7 mighty people hauling the cables that controlled the passing years....fantastic!

01-20-2003, 10:21 AM	#12
Inderjit Sanghera Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England. Posts: 260	Yes FoG is the Fall of Gondolin. was there love really 'pure' or 'sweet'? Turin was under a curse and the spell of Glaurung, which clearly miffed him up, and Nienor was also under a spell of Glaurung. I think it was fate more then anything else. Turin and Finduilas would have expressed the fact that they had feelings for each other (though it was obvious to all) if it wasn't for Melkor's curse, which was pretty much screwing up Turin's life.

01-20-2003, 11:14 AM	#13
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I love FoG in BoLT2. It's a really good story, and I liked it much better than that shortend story in the Silm. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

01-20-2003, 02:19 PM	#17
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	No, I don't think their love was pure and sweet. They were both - as SGH said - under the curse of the house of Hurin. How can their love be pure, if they were blinded? Turin should have ended up with Finduilas. And yes, I've read BoLT 1 and 2. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

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