Lord of the Rings Discussion Project. Chapters II & III

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What’s happening

 Frodo and Sam have just escaped ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol. The Watchers cry alerts Sauron’s forces who rush towards the Tower.
 Minas Tirith is besieged. The Witch King has brakes the cities gate and the Rohirrim charge. Aragorn brings the men of Lamedon and Lebennin to the battle. Aragorn raises the standard of Arwen. Theoden is slain.
 Battle under the trees in Mirkwood. Thranduil’s forces repel that of Dol Guldur and the second assault upon Lorien begins.

The Land of Shadow

Main Events

1. Sam and Frodo hear the cry of a Nazgûl while fleeing the Tower.
2. Hearing their pursuers, the hobbit’s jump of the bridge in to the plains of Morgai.
3. Frodo discards his mail shirt, not being able to carry it and wears Sam’s elven cloak.
4. The wind changes, and Frodo and Sam see a black figure returning to Mordor. As it arrives it let’s out a shrill cry, yet this cry no longer contains any note of terror.
5. Using the light Sam and Frodo use a track to find their way. The risk pays of as they find water. Sam offers to drink first in case it is poisonous.
6. The hobbits see the trackers. The large Uruk thinks that they have followed the right track, yet the ‘Snaga’ thinks that the little dwarf man and and great elf warrior went up into the hills. The small orc kills the larger Uruk and runs off out of sight.
7. We here that there is bad news from the battle and that there is a black gobbler (Gollum) somewhere around.
8. Frodo gives Sting to Sam and asks him to look after the phial.
9. The two hobbits see Sauron’s forces moving towards the Black Gate.
10. The two hobbits are captured by a horde of orcs heading towards Udûn. As a horde of Uruk charge at the Durthang line, Frodo and Sam see their chance to escape.

Mount Doom

What’s happening

 The third assault on Lorien begins.
 Aragorn dismisses the faint hearted as the Captains of the West leave Ithilien.

Main Events

1. Sam wraps up Frodo in the elven cloak, and as he does so thinks of Lorien and hopes that the cloak will keep them hidden on their journey.
2. Sam comes to realise that there will be no return and their supplies will only take them to Mount Doom, but as his hope dies he becomes stern, almost stern. As he thinks of this, his thoughts turn home to the Shire.
3. As Aragorns host burns the fields of Imlad Morgul, Sam & Frodo turn back to the road.
4. Sam notices Frodo shielding himself from some unseen blow, and his right hand slowly being drawn towards the Ring.
5. Sam tells Frodo he will help him carry the Ring. Briefly his hand towards his sword hilt as he warns Sam off.
6. Sam and Frodo cast away all of their gear. Sam is particularly tearful about having to part with his cooking gear.
7. Sam debates with himself about the course to take.
8. Sam decides that Frodo can not manage to get up the mountain by himself and resolves to carry him.
9. Sam and Frodo come to Sauron’s road from Barad-dûr to Sammath Naur.
10. Frodo calls out to Sam, as the temptation of the Ring becomes to great for him.
11. Gollum hits Sam on the head with a rock. As he looks up he sees the sight he saw at Emyn Muil, of two rivals. Frodo casts Gollum off, telling him that if he touches him ever again he will be cast into the fire. Gollum flees as Sam aims a kick at him
12. As Sam follows Frodo into Sammauth Naur he can not see, he draws out the phial of Galadriel, yet it brings forth no light.
13. Frodo claims the Ring as his own. As he does this the Nazgûl, turn from the battlefield and fly towards Mount Doom.
14. Gollum knocks Sam over and wrestles and invisible Frodo for the Ring. Gollum bites off Frodo’s finger and claims the Ring, yet in his jubilance he falls over the edge and into the Fire, destroying the Ring, and bringing and end to Sauron’s domain.
15. Frodo remembers Gandalf’s words concerning Gollum, and tells Sam that he would not have been able to destroy it without Gollum.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Key Quotes

Originally Posted by Frodo

As I lay in prison, Sam, i tried to remember the Brandywine, and Woody End, and the water running through the Mill in Hobbiton. But I can't see them now.

Originally Posted by Sam

If I ever see the Lady again, I will tell her! Light and now water! Let me drink first, Mr Frodo.

Originally Posted by Uruk Warrior

Whose blame's that? Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour. Then it's a sort of dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together.

Originally Posted by Frodo

It's dark and we cannot use the Lady's glass. Keep it safe for me, Sam. have nowhere to keep it now, except in my hand, and I shall need both hands in the blind night. But Sting I give to you. I have got an orc-blade, but I do not think it will be my part to strike any blow again.

He [Sam] felt the cool mud about his toes as he paddled in the Pool at Bywater with Jolly Cotton and Tom and Nibs, and their sister Rosie.

Originally Posted by Sam

Come one Mr. Frodo! I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it aswell.

Originally Posted by Frodo

Begone, and trouble me no more! If you ever touch me again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.

Discussion Points

1. Why did it take so long for help to arrive at Cirith Ungol. There was an important prisoner there and Sauron allowed a fight to take place there. Why was there not a Nazgûl there from the beginning?

2. Is the black figure the Witch-King or another Nazgûl bringing bad news.

3. Do you think that hearing about the great Elf Warrior would have boosted Sam's spirits?

4. Does Frodo giving Sam to Sting symbolise the 'Changing of the Guard'? Bilbo to Frodo. Frodo to Sam.

5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there wold be no return, or was this the first time he realised?

6. Is Frodo warning Sam to leave the Ring another way that Frodo has become like Bilbo?

7. Is there any parallels between Gollum debating with himself and Sam doing so. Are these two charcters more alike than they think?

8. Sam sees Gollum and Frodo as two rivals. Is Frodo Gollum as he should have been? Is Frodo turning into Gollum?

9. Does the phial of Galadriel not working symbolise that Sauron's power is greater than that of Galadriel?

10. Does Frodo's warning to Gollum have anything to do with him falling into the fire?

11. Through out these two chapters the two Hobbits think of Lorien and the Shire. Was Tolkien trying to say that these two places were the complete opposite of Mordor?

[Gordis]

Great summary, TD!
Extremely interesting discussion points.
My compliments, TD! I will be back later.

[Butterbeer]

Wotcha TD!

yes- excellent work. i too have no time just now other than quick looksy!
Look forward to the debate to follow!

Did the ring not want to be found by sauron, do you think - in helping sam out?

best, BB

[Landroval]

Did the ring not want to be found by sauron, do you think - in helping sam out?

I doubt that; in the Shadow of the past, Gandalf states that:"The Ring was trying to get back to its master." I see no reason for that to change, esspecially since the ring and Sauron were so close at that point.

[Gordis]

And here I second Landroval's opinion whole-heartedly

Now, I must really get back to TD's questions...

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I doubt that; in the Shadow of the past, Gandalf states that:"The Ring was trying to get back to its master." I see no reason for that to change, esspecially since the ring and Sauron were so close at that point.

yes, sure - but that's Gandalf's view.

remember Tolkien sets this out as a History- but he is very clear that it is one as seen from the perspective of and by the accounts of the hobbits - and they at best second guess much of the enemy's movements, plans and thoughts ... how can they not?

Gandalf himself says he is no lore master on the One - come to that - who really was? Saruman? Hardly. But he knew considerably more than Gandalf.

To me this is the central question of this chapter - is the ring manipulating the Orcs and did it hinder rather than help the cause of "getting back to its master"??

As i say, that was an assumption only by Gandalf - he knows it himself that it could have not have been more than that.

best all, BB