Please support me!

[samwiselvr2008]

Okay, I checked out The Silmorilain (however that is spelled) today, for like the 5th time, I am atemting it... agian. Please help me to finish it! Incourage me, please! I already read the first two parts, and then chapter 1, I didn't understand the first two parts, so I reread them, and I understand them now- some. Now I am planing to reread part 1 and 2 and chapter 1, to pute it all together. PLEASE HELP! I need your support so much! My own libraryian at school will not stand behind me, she said that I should pick a diffrent book to try, but I am determend, so with you'll pushing me, and my determination, I will make it!!!! Just 1 million more pages to go (it seems) but I will make it! And I will understand it in the end! Just help me, please! I can do it, I can do it, I can do it!!!!

*Sigh* please help a little helpless mooter, plus if I have any questions while reading then I'll post them here, starting with this one: In the first part, it says that the sons of Iluvater (is that right? I don't have the book on me tight now!) were elves and men, but if so, then why is Chapt. 3 is about elves coming, and why are the elves the oldest race in ME?

What is the HOME series that ya'll talk about? Is it LOTR?

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Silmarillion did not come easy to many if any when they first read it, including me. It is a difficult read that requires great application. If you love Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings, it will be your insentive to go further. It is a very rewarding book when finished for the fact that great effort went into your finishing it. Stay with it. Don't give up. You'll be glad you did.

The Histories of Middle-earth (HoMe) is a series of 12 books consisting of works that were unpublished in the Sil and other books, along with commentaries, notes, and correction from Christopher Tolkien, regarding the History all the way through the Lord of the Rings. Just worry about getting through the Silmarillion now.

[Khamûl]

Once you get past all the descriptive and creation stuff, it gets better. Once you meet Feanor and the Noldor, it's pretty much all downhill (except for 'Of Beleriand and its Realms'). It took me a while to get into it, but once I did, I enjoyed it. Just keep at it.

[Nibs]

Don't expect to get everything from your first read.

And don't take it too slowly. Or too quickly.

If you're like me, you'll enjoy learning about the origins of all the races and many, many characters. It surprised me that LotR is covered in just a few pages, but all in all, made me appreciate Tolkien's work more. Much more.

[BeardofPants]

If you're finding the first bits difficult, then you may want to start on Beren and Luthien. And remember, ALWAYS refer to the family trees at the back... it saves you taking notes! (Although I found note taking to be very helpful.)

[cassiopeia]

My advice would be to read is carefully and refer to the glossary at the back of the book. I had to because I kept forgetting who Finrod was related to, among others. I read it once a few months ago in about four days, hopefully I read it slower next time and actually remember the details.

Sam: I don't really understand your question. Elves and men are the children of Iluvatar. Elves are the oldest because they awoke first, I suppose.

[Rían]

Hi samwiselvr2008

Have you read through the "Does the Silmarillion get more entertaining" thread on this forum? Lots of people shared their frustrations and their enjoyment. Also, they shared some tips that helped them get through it the first time.

Also, if you like reading, a bunch of us have discussed in detail the first two chapters of the Sil, and you could read through those threads if you want to.

Let me just try to give some quick answers (because I'm trying to get to bed, I'm so tired right now!) and let me know if it helps, or if you have any other questions.

Please help me to finish it! Incourage me, please! I already read the first two parts, and then chapter 1, I didn't understand the first two parts, so I reread them, and I understand them now- some. Now I am planing to reread part 1 and 2 and chapter 1, to pute it all together.

First of all, are you reading it for your own enjoyment, or for a book report or something like that? I only ask because to be practical, it would be really hard to do a book report on it. I'd suggest doing another book, if that's the case. If it's for your enjoyment, then I'd say "stick with it! And we'll help you out"

I wouldn't bother re-reading it too much, I think it might be better just to plough through it once to get a general picture of the book. Then as you re-read it, you'll pick up more and more.

And I will understand it in the end! Just help me, please! I can do it, I can do it, I can do it!!!!

Don't worry too much about understanding it, just enjoy it! It is beautifully written, and there are beautiful themes in it. You will start to understand it as time goes by and you re-read it. I STILL get mixed up with who is the son of whom sometimes There's lots of names starting with "F" - like Fëanor, Finwë , Fingolfin, Finarfin, etc.

In the first part, it says that the sons of Iluvater (is that right? I don't have the book on me tight now!) were elves and men, but if so, then why is Chapt. 3 is about elves coming, and why are the elves the oldest race in ME?

I'm not quite sure I understand your question. Ilúvatar is God, and the first things he creates in the Sil are the angels, called the Ainur. Then He created the world. Some of the Ainur decided to live in the world (with Ilúvatar's permission) to help govern it, and the mightiest of these are called the Valar. The lesser angelic beings are called the Maiar, and Gandalf is one of these - his name is Olórin. The beings that he creates to live in the world are called the children of Ilúvatar. The elves are the oldest because they appeared on the earth first, before men. Does that answer your question?

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'm not quite sure I understand your question. Ilúvatar is God, and the first things he creates in the Sil are the angels, called the Ainur. Then He created the world.

I understand the temptation to identify Eru/Iluvatar with the Christian God, but I don't think he's supposed to be the same person. It works as a metaphorical illustration of what type of being he is supposed to be.

I was under the impression that the Ainur created the world, unintentionally, through their Music, mediated by Iluvatar. I stand ready to be corrected on these matters!

I agree with BoP's advice, sw2008. I read each chapter as an independent story. Take your time. Turin's is a great story. But I think that the style of writing is a real obstacle for many readers. It takes a lot of getting used to, but it's well worth it.

cheers, and good luck
d.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Eru Iluvatar is almost definitely the God of the Christians. Remember, that Tolkien himself was a devout Christian. He loved the mythology of the Norse, but he disliked the pagan elements. So, he created a mythology which he felt would be acceptable to God; Middle-Earth was the result.

And I am fairly sure that the Ainur sung the Ainulindale, but Eru caused it all to Be. Let me look it up.

Then there was unrest among the Ainur; but Iluvatar called to them, and said: "I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Ea! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it."
-Ainulindale, p. 20

It seems fairly clear to me that Eru was the one who actually created it; thought that may just be me.

[samwiselvr2008]

I'm reading it for my anjoyment, not for a book report! (Thank goodness, I would so fall the book report with my understanding of it!) I thought that the Ainur were his sons, but they'er like angels? Okay, thanks, that helped alot, now since I know that I have been looking at them rongly. At the begining of the book, ther is a note from C. Tolkien, that says that ther was a first Dark Lord, was that Melkor? And if it was, was Sauron someone who worked for him, and sorda like ganed "nolege" of being evil from him? I got that exspresion while reading the book, not sher why, maybe it was something that it said. I am rereading Chapt. 1, just to get the stuff I didn't before, of course I won't get it all- I know that- but the truth is that I sometimes wonder off and think about other stuff while reading it! I would have never gotten past the second page, if it wasn't partly by my determination, and the moot! You geuss always cept on talking about it, and I wanted to be able to joun in on The Sil. part of entmoot, so that is probaly why I haven't given up! The styl of writing (as mentioned by someone else) is really hard to understand, and really boring, sometimes I'll be reading it, and have to just stop for a minute and wake up some so that I can continue!

[azalea]

It's funny, one of the reasons I came to Entmoot in the first place was because I was reading The Silm and wanted some "commentary" on it. It is very hard for me to read, too! I am embarrassed to say that I STILL haven't finished, although that is partly because it was packed in the move and I've just found it, so I AM starting on it again, but I didn't know if I should try to start over or just start where I left off. I am really enjoying the discussions in this forum that were started for each chapter, although I haven't really joined in. I think I might try to now that I've started reading it again.
You can PM me if you want to as you read each chapter, because I'd love to hear from someone else who is reading it for the first time. Your questions will help me understand it better, too!

edit: P.S. I'm just starting on ch. 18.

[Rían]

Argh! I made a detailed and intelligent (unusual for me ) post addressing the points in Dunadan's post, and I must have hit "reset" when I was editing, because now it's gone! Well, I'll try to reconstruct it.

Originally posted by Dunadan
I understand the temptation to identify Eru/Iluvatar with the Christian God, but I don't think he's supposed to be the same person. It works as a metaphorical illustration of what type of being he is supposed to be.

Watch out, here comes the self-proclaimed "Letters of JRR Tolkien" meister!

from letter #156, by JRRT:
There is only one 'god': God, Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

JRRT refers to Ilúvatar as God in many places in "Letters".

from letter #211, by JRRT:
I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place.

He goes on to say that he imagines us to be in about the 6th or 7th age (when the letter was written).

]Originally posted by Dunadan
I was under the impression that the Ainur created the world, unintentionally, through their Music, mediated by Iluvatar. I stand ready to be corrected on these matters!

from letter #131, by JRRT:
The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. The latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'.

]Originally posted by Dunadan
I agree with BoP's advice, sw2008. I read each chapter as an independent story. Take your time. Turin's is a great story. But I think that the style of writing is a real obstacle for many readers. It takes a lot of getting used to, but it's well worth it.

Yes, I agree. The writing is a bit heavy sometimes, but it is really beautiful, and you'll get used to it. And you can pick and choose what you re-read, because they are independent stories.

Cheers too! (I like your 'cheers', d!)

[Maedhros]

I just wanted to share something from the Prologue of the Book of Lost Tales I:

The Silmarillion is commonly said to be a 'difficult' book, needing explanation and guidance on how to 'approach' it; and in this it is contrasted' to The Lord of the Rings. In Chapter 7 of his book The Road to Middle-earth Professor T. A. Shippey accepts that this is so ('The Silmarillion could never be anything but hard to read', p. 201), and expounds his view of why it should be. A complex discussion is not treated justly when it is extracted, but in his view the reasons are essentially two (p. 185). In the first place, there is in The Silmarillion no 'mediation' of the kind provided by the hobbits (so, in The Hobbit, 'Bilbo acts as the link between modern times and the archaic world of dwarves and dragons').

Where The Silmarillion differs from Tolkien's earlier works is in its refusal to accept novelistic convention. Most novels (including The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) pick a character to put in the foreground, like Frodo and Bilbo, and then tell the story as it happens to him. The novelist of course is inventing the story, and so retains omniscience: he can explain, or show, what is 'really' happening and contrast it with the limited perception of his character.

Of course, 'The Silmarillion' was intended to move the heart and the imagination, directly, and without peculiar effort or the possession of unusual faculties; but its mode is inherent, and it may be doubted whether any 'approach' to it can greatly aid those who find it unapproachable.

Have patience, The Published Silmarillion is a great reading.

[samwiselvr2008]

I need a boost! I read like 2 pages yesturday, and today non! I'm gonna pick up the book tonight and finish a chapter!

[Rían]

(Dunadan, one of your posts on this thread just disappeared! The one responding to my last post. This is really weird! Are other people's posts disappearing? That makes at least 3 of us!)

[Rían]

Sorry, samwiselvr2008, I'm trying to support you, but my posts are disappearing

What chapter are you on?

[Sister Golden Hair]

I have put up a thread in the moderator forum about the missing posts. All I can suggest to everyone for now until the problem is resolved is to copy and save your work before you submit so that if it disappears you can repost without having to go through the task of thinking and typing it all up again.

Be patient folks. I'm working on it.

[samwiselvr2008]

Still on chapter one. I didn't end up reading it last night! But my favorite teacher has found out that I am reading the book, and her being a "hobbit head" has decided that she would re- read it with me! So now, I HAVE to finish it, I have my wanting to finish it, you geuss, and my teacher all backing me up, so ther is know way that I can stop! I will finally read it! Yay!!! Just as long as I get up the courage to finish reading chapter one, and start chapter two, I'll be off! Hopefully that will happen tonight, I would be reading it now if I wasn't on the internet and working on a class newspaper artical (another one ) on The Fellowhip!

[Blackboar]

I've just read the Valaquenta. I'm going to make it through this!!

I know I'm going to love it!! (Once I understand it )
My brothers helping me as he loves LotR too

[Falagar]

How do you turn on the [img]-code?