Population?

[BelegS]

Now Tolkien has the infuriating habbit of never giving out the exact figure, specially when it comes to counting of forces.
Except for one instance, when we informed about the Number of the Army of Gondolin, we are never really told the numerical value of things concerning Elves or Men. Why is that? Is their any specific reason behind Tolkien's not writing exact numerical values? Perhaps he wanted to keep us guessing?

[Sween]

Originally posted by BelegS
Now Tolkien has the infuriating habbit of never giving out the exact figure, specially when it comes to counting of forces.
Except for one instance, when we informed about the Number of the Army of Gondolin, we are never really told the numerical value of things concerning Elves or Men. Why is that? Is their any specific reason behind Tolkien's not writing exact numerical values? Perhaps he wanted to keep us guessing?

i wish he had given numbers esspecially for the sil! I imigin that some of ther battles involved hundreds of thousands of people.

Ive have for some reason allways thought of the numbers of the nolder leaveing aman to be 100.000! dunno why

[Bombadillo]

He did give numbers when Gondor and Rohan were preparing for the battle on the plain (the name just slipped my mind). I might edit this and give them later, I don't have the book right now.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes, Tolkien is somewhat vague with actual numbers, but he does give some ideas at times that the numbers were great. We have to believe that the numbers of the forces in the Nirneth were very great among Men and Elves, especially the Noldor. Gondolin with 10,000 strong, Fingons host was great, and we are told that the company from Nargothrond was small, so can we estimate that company to be under 1,000 perhaps?

Another instance where Tolkien gives us an idea of great numbers was the Exodu of the Noldor from Valinor, as Sween mentioned. Although he does not state an actual figure, the hosts were great, especially the host of Fingolfin.

There are other examples, but you are correct, that no accurate figures are given in the Silmarillion. I think in that particular style of writing, that it may have sounded better to say things like

Fingon, High King of the Noldor. Then Fingon looked out from the walls of Eithel Sirion, and his host was arrayed in the valleys and the woods upon the east of Ered Wethrin, well hid from the eyes of the Enemy; but he knew that it was very great. For there all the Noldor of Hithlum were assembled, together with Elves of the Falas and Gwindor's company from Nargothrond, and he had great strength of Men: upon the right were the host of Dor-lómin and all the valour of Húrin and Huor his brother, and to them had come Haldir of Brethil with many men of the woods.

than to say that Fingon's host was about 50,000 or so, and he knew that it was very great. So, maybe to keep the flowing style is why actual numbers were left out. When you think about how many times he would have had to use a real number, the story would have depriciated.

[Elbereth Gilthoniel]

The numbers of the people don't change a lot when you only try to read and enjoy it, but if you try to get in it. I mean- it doesn't bother while you read it it does after it.

[Lalaith]

just a short question:
Did Tolkien write how many Elves awakened at C.... (I won't spell it because I will mis-spell it)?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

144. 'Quendi and Eldar', HoME 11.

[BelegS]

Their is a Nice Essay written by Micheal Martinez written on this topic, but all that is hearsay and mere speculation. And about the forces of Fingon, We have to consider that that Turgon took a lot of people of Fingolfin, (Probably upto 2/3rd of them) and still more Grey Elves (according to one Version), and even then his Army in an important battle such as Nirneath didn't exceed 10 thousand. And since the king himself was out to battle and Gondolin itself was hidden, and Turgon might have an idea that this battle might be a do and die affair, so he might have taken a large portion of Gondoldrim with him, perhaps even upton 2/3'rd or more of the whole army. And we also have to consider that the House of Hador was indeed great, because they have said to brought "great Companies" of men. Yet, in Nirneath and other Battle we get no notion of their greatness in Numbers, sure a great deal of them is Slaughtered in Nirneath, yet in full force one gets the feeling that they should have shown more resistance, specially, specially if we interpret "Great Companies" in Modern Scenario. Yet, i get a feeling that in Tolkien's world, great might mean 20 to 30 thousand.
And I also forgot the passage from the "The Last Debate"
It has been mentioned their that 7 thousand people weree "scarce the vainguard of Gondor in the height of its power" so The might of Gondor should have been very great.
I don't think Fingon possessed an army of 50000 or so, 50000 elves would have been enough to wreck havoc in Morgoth's army even with the treason of Man.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
144. 'Quendi and Eldar', HoME 11.

Was that the anwer to my question?

[BelegS]

Yes, Liliath that is the answer to your Question.

[Lalaith]

Thanks.
I really want to read HoME.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BelegS
Their is a Nice Essay written by Micheal Martinez written on this topic, but all that is hearsay and mere speculation. And about the forces of Fingon, We have to consider that that Turgon took a lot of people of Fingolfin, (Probably upto 2/3rd of them) and still more Grey Elves (according to one Version), and even then his Army in an important battle such as Nirneath didn't exceed 10 thousand. And since the king himself was out to battle and Gondolin itself was hidden, and Turgon might have an idea that this battle might be a do and die affair, so he might have taken a large portion of Gondoldrim with him, perhaps even upton 2/3'rd or more of the whole army. And we also have to consider that the House of Hador was indeed great, because they have said to brought "great Companies" of men. Yet, in Nirneath and other Battle we get no notion of their greatness in Numbers, sure a great deal of them is Slaughtered in Nirneath, yet in full force one gets the feeling that they should have shown more resistance, specially, specially if we interpret "Great Companies" in Modern Scenario. Yet, i get a feeling that in Tolkien's world, great might mean 20 to 30 thousand.
And I also forgot the passage from the "The Last Debate"
It has been mentioned their that 7 thousand people weree "scarce the vainguard of Gondor in the height of its power" so The might of Gondor should have been very great.
I don't think Fingon possessed an army of 50000 or so, 50000 elves would have been enough to wreck havoc in Morgoth's army even with the treason of Man.

Well, we're talking about laying down precise numbers here. That is not possible. I am not saying that Fingon had 50,000, What I am saying is that it sounded better in the style of writing to leave out the actual numbers and let the story flow with idea. With the treason of Men, had Maedhros' forces been able to unite with Fingon and Turgon, their army would have been great indeed. Tolkien himself says that "but for the treachery of Men, the Noldor might have won the day" (not a direct quote, but I could get the book and provide one) I agree that there are no definitive numbers stated, but in the style that it is written, you are given a definitive idea.

[Bombadillo]

I think that if he did give numbers for every single muster (or something) the books would get very tedious, annoying, and boring. That's why I couldn't stand 20,000 Leauges Under the Sea. That stuff's not important.