right and wrong

LuthienTinuviel · 06-12-2002, 09:57 PM

if a man with the brian level of a seven year old, who is really something like 45, does something against the law.. a law that a 45 year old would know not to break, but a 7 year old wouldn't know the difference, should that man still be punished the same as a fully functional 45 year old? what do you think, my thought's later...

Mirahzi · 06-12-2002, 10:08 PM

Would he not be then deemed mentally insane and not held accountable for his actions? Or something like that.. Then he's just put in a mental correction facility and he doesn't recieve the normal sentence, right?

LuthienTinuviel · 06-12-2002, 10:10 PM

i think that they gave him the same amount of time but inaa prison where he could be "taken car eof"

i don't recall the outcome of it all, but there was a big uproar about this around here a while ago..
i am pretty sure it was from sexual harrassment

***azalea*** · 06-13-2002, 09:09 AM

I don't like it, but I have to say that if mentally disabled adults cannot be taught to live by society's rules then they do need to be put in a residential home. There are a lot of people who argue that they can't help it, just as they do for people with the severely mentally ill. I am very sad for those people, but if they are a danger or have aggressive tendencies, that's enough reason that they should not be "on the streets" if you will. I guess the best thing I can compare it to is a dangerous wild animal (I don't mean for it to sound insulting). The animal can't help that it's that way, but that doesn't mean we should have to let it live in our back yard.

LuthienTinuviel · 06-13-2002, 01:46 PM

ha! they did throw him in a conventional prison, no mental help service or whatever.. that's what the teacher said that brought this up a few weeks back.

they should be put in a place where thay can be taken care of, azalea.
i guess i was asking, do you think that he knew he was doing anything wrong at the time he was commiting the crime?
if you were on the jury of this case, what would your reasons be and stuff.

mrcool · 06-16-2002, 10:33 PM

when you go to jail, its to pay for your crime and sometimes learn your lesson and blah blah blah...but sending a insane person to jail won't do anything. they won't know why they are there, or what they did wrong.

***azalea*** · 06-17-2002, 07:31 PM

There's a really broad definition in some cases of "insane". I of course think jail isn't the right place for them, but they certainly need to be monitored so that others aren't victimized. And since each case would have such different circumstances it's really hard for me to say if he knew right from wrong. If I had to make a guess, assuming he truly is mentally disabled, I would ahve to say that he knew right from wrong in this case (he knew he shouldn't have done what he did), but he lacked the understanding of the gravity of the crime, he was unable to fully comprehend how his actions would negatively impact his victim, and thus would have to be not guilty of a crime; nevertheless I would recommend what I stated above.

***azalea*** · 07-30-2002, 09:55 PM

I thought this would be an appropriate thread for this -- so today a former teacher was convicted of having "relations" with one of her former students, she being 46, he was 13 at the time. She claims it was because of bipolar disorder. Do you think that can be used as an excuse? Should we say, "oh well that's understandable, then"?
Many people suffer form this disorder, yet they know right from wrong and are able to live their lives without committing crimes. She was on medication at the time, from what I can tell. Just wanted to hear some opinions on the matter.

Mirahzi · 07-30-2002, 10:04 PM

If she was indeed on medication at the time, and the medication was effective (meaning it offset the affects of the disorder), then she should be held accountable for her actions, since she would have been in her right mind.

galadriel88 · 07-30-2002, 10:28 PM

Ditto.

afro-elf · 07-31-2002, 12:10 AM

well if i was 13 an attractive 46 year old woman wanted to bed me .....

***azalea*** · 07-31-2002, 02:17 PM

WEll, then what would be an appropriate punishment for her? Should she serve jail time? Or should she get time in a mental ward since she claims her mental illness is to blame? Obviously she won't be teaching anymore. Should she be put on the child sex offenders list?

Comic Book Guy · 07-31-2002, 02:21 PM

In lots of mental illness cases, medication does not get rid of the disorder, it only helps people to control the disorder with chances of failure.

***azalea*** · 07-31-2002, 02:49 PM

So I guess I'm asking, should she be allowed to go free without punishment, although there are no guarantees that this won't happen again? Would it be different if it were a 13 yr old girl, and the 46 yr old a man? If people have a mental illness that manifests itself with possible harm to others, should that person be "locked up" or monitored somehow, because they are a danger? Is it worth the risk to allow this person to resume her normal life?

Along similar lines, there is that Avila guy who was aquitted of molesting 2 young girls because the defense attorney cast doubt on their testimony (doubt because he claimed they'd been coerced, which basically made it a "their word against his"). He is now awaiting trial for the rape and murder of a 5 year old (I think she was 5). There are a lot of situations like this, where the guy has pleaded guilty and gets a light sentence, then gets out and finds another victim. He is obviously mentally ill, but never gets put away.

Mirahzi · 07-31-2002, 03:23 PM

Just to clarify: what was the nature of the encounter? Was it assault (rape) or was it consensual?

If a person has a mental illness that could prove dangerous to the society around him, then, obviously, he should be put on medication. However, if the medication is ineffective or unavailable, then I personally think that he should be at least monitored.

I don't think it's likely that a person suffering from bipolar could resume a normal life, due to the drastic effects of the disorder. I don't even think proper medication could wholly offset the effects (Not sure, feel free to correct me). And, in addition, being a sex offender, she would not, I believe, be a welcome member of the community.

BeardofPants · 07-31-2002, 04:33 PM

It hardly matters whether it was consensual or not. At that age, both boys and girls are emotionally and physically immature. I can't believe that a thirteen year old boy could go through this experience, and not be damaged on some level. Even if only on a superficial one, in that he falls in love with her. And how is it different from if a 46 year old man did it to a 13 year old girl? If the sexes were reversed, people would be screaming for blue murder. However, I agree with Mirahzi on this one: check out whether she was on medication, and if so, how effective was it? I'm sure eye witnesses could establish whether or not the medication was working.

Mirahzi · 07-31-2002, 04:40 PM

The difference between unwilling and consensual relations is that the defendant would be given a harsher sentence for the former(rape vs. underage sex)

06-12-2002, 09:57 PM	#1
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	right and wrong if a man with the brian level of a seven year old, who is really something like 45, does something against the law.. a law that a 45 year old would know not to break, but a 7 year old wouldn't know the difference, should that man still be punished the same as a fully functional 45 year old? what do you think, my thought's later... __________________

06-12-2002, 10:08 PM	#2
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	Would he not be then deemed mentally insane and not held accountable for his actions? Or something like that.. Then he's just put in a mental correction facility and he doesn't recieve the normal sentence, right? __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

06-12-2002, 10:10 PM	#3
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	i think that they gave him the same amount of time but inaa prison where he could be "taken car eof" i don't recall the outcome of it all, but there was a big uproar about this around here a while ago.. i am pretty sure it was from sexual harrassment __________________

06-13-2002, 01:46 PM	#5
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	ha! they did throw him in a conventional prison, no mental help service or whatever.. that's what the teacher said that brought this up a few weeks back. they should be put in a place where thay can be taken care of, azalea. i guess i was asking, do you think that he knew he was doing anything wrong at the time he was commiting the crime? if you were on the jury of this case, what would your reasons be and stuff. __________________

06-16-2002, 10:33 PM	#6
mrcool Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: VA Posts: 15	when you go to jail, its to pay for your crime and sometimes learn your lesson and blah blah blah...but sending a insane person to jail won't do anything. they won't know why they are there, or what they did wrong. __________________ Mooses R COOL!! I Am MaG! MOosES AnD GAnDaLFS!!! -don't ask...

06-13-2002, 09:09 AM	#4
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I don't like it, but I have to say that if mentally disabled adults cannot be taught to live by society's rules then they do need to be put in a residential home. There are a lot of people who argue that they can't help it, just as they do for people with the severely mentally ill. I am very sad for those people, but if they are a danger or have aggressive tendencies, that's enough reason that they should not be "on the streets" if you will. I guess the best thing I can compare it to is a dangerous wild animal (I don't mean for it to sound insulting). The animal can't help that it's that way, but that doesn't mean we should have to let it live in our back yard.

06-17-2002, 07:31 PM	#7
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	There's a really broad definition in some cases of "insane". I of course think jail isn't the right place for them, but they certainly need to be monitored so that others aren't victimized. And since each case would have such different circumstances it's really hard for me to say if he knew right from wrong. If I had to make a guess, assuming he truly is mentally disabled, I would ahve to say that he knew right from wrong in this case (he knew he shouldn't have done what he did), but he lacked the understanding of the gravity of the crime, he was unable to fully comprehend how his actions would negatively impact his victim, and thus would have to be not guilty of a crime; nevertheless I would recommend what I stated above.

07-30-2002, 09:55 PM	#8
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I thought this would be an appropriate thread for this -- so today a former teacher was convicted of having "relations" with one of her former students, she being 46, he was 13 at the time. She claims it was because of bipolar disorder. Do you think that can be used as an excuse? Should we say, "oh well that's understandable, then"? Many people suffer form this disorder, yet they know right from wrong and are able to live their lives without committing crimes. She was on medication at the time, from what I can tell. Just wanted to hear some opinions on the matter.

07-30-2002, 10:04 PM	#9
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	If she was indeed on medication at the time, and the medication was effective (meaning it offset the affects of the disorder), then she should be held accountable for her actions, since she would have been in her right mind. __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

07-30-2002, 10:28 PM	#10
galadriel88 Halfwitted Queen of Lothlorien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Far off in a dream Posts: 1,166	Ditto. __________________ The beuatiful mind/The beautiful heart/Doesn't deserve the pain/How can I stop the rain? -How Can I Stop the Rain? by Kessid, my new favorite band +Every good thing that comes into my life is only a reflection of the greatest gift of all; the offering of yourself, dear Son of God+ Always remember, you're uniqe, just like everybody else! "The one constant through all the years has been the Trombone. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Its been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again, but the Trombone has marked the time. This field, this section, this band is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and could be again. Oh, people will come . . . people will most definitely come."

07-31-2002, 12:10 AM	#11
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	well if i was 13 an attractive 46 year old woman wanted to bed me ..... __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

07-31-2002, 02:17 PM	#12
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	WEll, then what would be an appropriate punishment for her? Should she serve jail time? Or should she get time in a mental ward since she claims her mental illness is to blame? Obviously she won't be teaching anymore. Should she be put on the child sex offenders list?

07-31-2002, 02:21 PM	#13
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	In lots of mental illness cases, medication does not get rid of the disorder, it only helps people to control the disorder with chances of failure.

07-31-2002, 02:49 PM	#14
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	So I guess I'm asking, should she be allowed to go free without punishment, although there are no guarantees that this won't happen again? Would it be different if it were a 13 yr old girl, and the 46 yr old a man? If people have a mental illness that manifests itself with possible harm to others, should that person be "locked up" or monitored somehow, because they are a danger? Is it worth the risk to allow this person to resume her normal life? Along similar lines, there is that Avila guy who was aquitted of molesting 2 young girls because the defense attorney cast doubt on their testimony (doubt because he claimed they'd been coerced, which basically made it a "their word against his"). He is now awaiting trial for the rape and murder of a 5 year old (I think she was 5). There are a lot of situations like this, where the guy has pleaded guilty and gets a light sentence, then gets out and finds another victim. He is obviously mentally ill, but never gets put away.

07-31-2002, 03:23 PM	#15
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	Just to clarify: what was the nature of the encounter? Was it assault (rape) or was it consensual? If a person has a mental illness that could prove dangerous to the society around him, then, obviously, he should be put on medication. However, if the medication is ineffective or unavailable, then I personally think that he should be at least monitored. I don't think it's likely that a person suffering from bipolar could resume a normal life, due to the drastic effects of the disorder. I don't even think proper medication could wholly offset the effects (Not sure, feel free to correct me). And, in addition, being a sex offender, she would not, I believe, be a welcome member of the community. __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

07-31-2002, 04:33 PM	#16
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	It hardly matters whether it was consensual or not. At that age, both boys and girls are emotionally and physically immature. I can't believe that a thirteen year old boy could go through this experience, and not be damaged on some level. Even if only on a superficial one, in that he falls in love with her. And how is it different from if a 46 year old man did it to a 13 year old girl? If the sexes were reversed, people would be screaming for blue murder. However, I agree with Mirahzi on this one: check out whether she was on medication, and if so, how effective was it? I'm sure eye witnesses could establish whether or not the medication was working. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

07-31-2002, 04:40 PM	#17
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	The difference between unwilling and consensual relations is that the defendant would be given a harsher sentence for the former(rape vs. underage sex) __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor