UK Referendum on EU

[Valandil]

Will she stay or will she go?

[Valandil]

And what do our UKers, and other EUers, think she SHOULD do?

[Earniel]

Earlier I had been thinking the Brits wouldn't be so daft to go through with it, but as Leave is in the (small) lead right now, I may need to rethink.

I think they're making a big, costly mistake if they want out, but hey, this is the EU and last time I checked still not a dictatorship so if they want out, let them out and go their own way. No hard feelings.

Personally I think the real benefits of staying outweigh the potential ones of leaving but it seems like the Leave-camp ramped up the emotional arguments in lieu of logical ones. (I'm not a fan of the EU on all fronts myself, at all. But I haven't seen one Leave-interviewee on the news that had an argument that made sense to me. Maybe I just missed them.)

But I live in a tiny country that helped found the EU so my viewpoint is entirely different. We never were an empire that ruled the seas. With all that history bearing down on them, I can see how they won't feel at home in a coalition which they don't rule.

But realistically they will need to continue to deal with the EU, like it or not, and I'm not sure they're in all that better position to do that now.

[Mari]

I think leaving is utter idiocy: the last and current government have tried to put several laws in place that were deemed against human rights or violation of privacy and thus stopped by the EU. With no one to check them, I think the UK policy makers may start doing even creepier things than the bedroom tax, etc. And with the first past the post voting system, it will be hard to stop them from within the UK.
But apparently the leave campaign was more effective. So be it. As a Dutch national, I won't miss them.

[Valandil]

So they did it! I'm a little surprised. At first, I thought they would. Then yesterday, most projections and early reports indicated they would remain. But... they're leaving.

I'm certain that my own opinions must only be minimally informed.

So for now, I'm interested in hearing from more Europeans - and our own UKers.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Mari

I think leaving is utter idiocy: the last and current government have tried to put several laws in place that were deemed against human rights or violation of privacy and thus stopped by the EU. With no one to check them, I think the UK policy makers may start doing even creepier things than the bedroom tax, etc. And with the first past the post voting system, it will be hard to stop them from within the UK.
But apparently the leave campaign was more effective. So be it. As a Dutch national, I won't miss them.

Well, as a Dutch national, if initial reports are correct, it looks as if you and your countrymen may also get to vote on verlaten of blijven.

On 29 May 2005, the French voted down the EU constitution 5 to 4; three days later, the Dutch voted it down by almost 5 to 3. Until yesterday, the only European country to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty was Ireland: it took two votes to pass it in Eire, because the Irish voted it down in the first one.

Vote ’til you get the result you want, then stop.

[Mari]

Hah, voting for or against anything to do with the EU is notoriously low. Generally the threshold is not met. Aside from that: though Wilders is once again screaming his silly head off, calling for us to leave as well, it's financially not possible. I also doubt it would be politically possible. Wilders knows that as well as any other well-informed person. He may look stupid, but he isn't.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Mari

Hah, voting for or against anything to do with the EU is notoriously low. Generally the threshold is not met.

Low turn-outs are the rule rather than the exception here in the Colonies, though this year holds out the promise of a little more excitement.

Originally Posted by Mari

[T]hough Wilders is once again screaming his silly head off, calling for us to leave as well, it's financially not possible. I also doubt it would be politically possible. Wilders knows that as well as any other well-informed person. He may look stupid, but he isn't.

Goedheid! Je houdt niet van Geert?

[Butterbeer]

Let me ask this: do the Entmooters here believe in the will of the people?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Well, as a Dutch national, if initial reports are correct, it looks as if you and your countrymen may also get to vote on verlaten of blijven.

I'd very much doubt it'll come to that any time soon.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Low turn-outs are the rule rather than the exception here in the Colonies, though this year holds out the promise of a little more excitement.

Dunno, we have mandatory voting so turn-outs at our elections are always high but the results are seldom a landslide. We don't do referanda, though, I think our politicians don't like that much democracy.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Let me ask this: do the Entmooters here believe in the will of the people?

I am curious why'd you ask, considering all of us here come from democracies. Still, believing someone has the right to make their own decisions is something else than thinking those decisions are the right one.

Did you go and vote, Butterbeer? Would you tell us what you voted?

[Butterbeer]

Yes I voted.
Not quite sure why you are curious about the question tho?

I think most people in Europe... Whatever side they be on believe there is a disconnect between democracy and the Eu.

For eg... If the Dutch voted... Or the French... Which way do you think it would go?

I only mention it as it's a very interesting question.

[Earniel]

I am curious because I find the word-choice and the timing strange.

'Believe' invokes some moral question. But what is the will of the people exactly? It's a very vague term.

Is 52% of 72% the will of the people? Is 65%? 70%? 90% perhaps? Is constantly holding referenda about virtually everything like in Switserland the will of the people? In America (as I dumb European understand it) people don't vote for the president directly, rather they choose electors who then elect a president. Is that the will of the people? Are the choices of elected officials the will of the people if the people themselves do not get a direct say on the choices? That goes for choosing a supreme leader of the country as well as for every policy decision elected officials make. All these things are all perfectly workable democratic processes but I don't think they're all automatically synomymous for 'the will of the people'. Debate opportunities are rife on this one.

Also, is the will of the people always something to aspire to, even if the will of the people is problematic on some issues? Do you think gay marriages is the will of the people in every land where gay marriages are legal? What about abortion? Taking in refugees? Equal education for women? I'm about to Godwin myself, but putting Hitler in charge was the will of the people too.

So yes, if asked, maybe the Netherlands and France and any other country, when given the chance, would also vote to leave the EU. But they don't have the benefit of the Splendid Isolation that the UK has. And just because we want something doesn't make it necessarily a good thing.

So I get the feeling that by replying to a thread asking for opinions with a morally loaded question, you want us to make a point for you rather than make it yourself. So while it's definitely an interesting question, I'd like to know: why ask it here?

As for Europe and its people, is the disconnect really there if it's mostly in the mind of the people? I do agree that Europe should do more to engage its citizens but I also think the citizens themselves should educate themselves more about the EU and how it works too. I completely grant the whole structure is complicated and confusing and could use improvement. (I almost think our system is easier to get and we have like six complete governments in Belgium which - if you think about it - is kinda crazy. )

[Butterbeer]

ah some much that could be said...and so little brain cells currently working
(slightly hungover)

Ok, lets put one thing to bed first. I really cannot be held responsible for the timing, either of the referendum (wasn't my idea!), Val starting this thread (good idea) or of the times of any of the replies ( we all welcome ideas).
I really cannot see the timing being of any relevance to be fair - im just contributing to the thread and reply to it as people make posts!

Rumours in Brussels that i had been planning to make that post at exactly that time for the last five years, are i fear...project FEAR

Blimey Eärniel, have you ever thought of becoming a Career Politician?

I agree that 'what constitutes the will of the people' is in itself a fantastic and fascinating debate- and you bring up some great questions both about varieties of democratic methodology, and of course a crazily interesting (and hugely topical) debate about what that might mean for gay marriage or abortion or capital punishment etc...

I had to google Godwins Law... hehe by referencing it, are you conceding? (just kidding)
Um, might be an idea to leave out the one-balled one for now... but as i recall my History i think the claim that Hitler was the will of the people might be somewhat shaky (in a democratic sense), given things like the use of stormtroopers at the attempted Munich Putsch and the The Reichstag fire etc.

But i really think and hope we dont get diverted by that and move on!


So yes whilst i agree we could derail and go into a detailed and seperate debate about 'what is the will of the people' as a thing in itself (and maybe we should- in another thread , my asking if you should consider becoming a politician was because i felt you side-stepped the question by a string of sub-questions that each would require in depth debate and analysis and perhaps a few floors more in the Brussels buildings with teams dedicated to look into it within a 10 year timescale

I do agree its a fair question, i just fear we'd get bogged down in the complexities of it?

As to the question itself it's at the very heart of why the UK, for good or ill, has decided to leave the EU, so perhaps im being obtuse, but for me at least its at the very heart of the debate

Now, i need get a coffee, and try and coax some brain cells out of their splendid stupor

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Blimey Eärniel, have you ever thought of becoming a Career Politician?

What, are you trying to insult me? I can't lie well enough. Nor have enough friends in high places.

But i really think and hope we dont get diverted by that and move on!

Then don't ask leading moral questions on which one can't simply answer 'yes' or 'no'! Val asked opinions on the Brexit, not complicated questions concerning democratic principles.

[...] my asking if you should consider becoming a politician was because i felt you side-stepped the question by a string of sub-questions that each would require in depth debate and analysis and perhaps a few floors more in the Brussels buildings with teams dedicated to look into it within a 10 year timescale

So you answer a question with a question and when I point out that to have an answer on your question, one would need to answer other questions first - it's me who gets accused of politician-ness. Need a mirror, BB?

As to the question itself it's at the very heart of why the UK, for good or ill, has decided to leave the EU, so perhaps im being obtuse, but for me at least its at the very heart of the debate

Well, whether this was something up to the people of the UK to choose was never in much doubt. That's what referenda are for, technically anyway.

Oh and for the love of god, will somebody get that Farage-bloke off my TV?!

[Mari]

Why? You don't enjoy watching him back-pedal on all the promises and lies he told during the campaign?
It's sad but in a way very amusing. How can people like that go to sleep at night or even ask others to take them seriously?

[Butterbeer]

@ Mari - kinda amusing, indeed - also sad. But if you cant laugh...

@ Eärniel, with the best will in the world, i really don't think it was a leading 'moral' question.

Val asked should we yes/no.. what do you think?
In the end, for those that voted the way they did, ultimately it came down to Soverignty. (sp?)

Lots of factors within that, sure- but the bottom line- for those of us trying to look at the mess and see what the underlying prime factors were... ultimately that's the core reason the Uk voted the way it did.

Cut away all the factors and shapers, that's the prime underlying driver right there.
Whatever my own thoughts, do i kinda admire Britons to standing up against all the odds?

Of course. Kind of hard not to.
But if that's the case, then literally the whole debate comes down to the will of the people.



As Obama said today - just too fast a project without the needed consensus.
Is it something both the UK and Europe should consider carefully moving forward? Yes.

Would the people of the Uk want a united, free trading, free-movement Europe? Of course!

Does GB want to turn away from Europe? NO.


Ultimately it comes down to doing it by consent.


Its a mess none of us wanted.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Mari

Why? You don't enjoy watching him back-pedal on all the promises and lies he told during the campaign?

Have you seen his latest performance in the European Parlement? Not nearly enough back-pedalling and far too much gloating. When are the British going to make him face some consequences for being a worthless lying jerk? It's so obvious he lied and lied and lied and has led people into a mess he has no idea, no skill or intention to get them out and from where I'm standing he's getting away with it too.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

@ Eärniel, with the best will in the world, i really don't think it was a leading 'moral' question.

As you wish, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Its a mess none of us wanted.

And yet, this is what the people voted for. It's not like the possible consequences were unknown beforehand.

[Mari]

Though to be fair, people sometimes thought they would get different things than what they were actually voting for. Some people actually thought that by voting out all foreigners would be kicked out of the UK.
I would see Wilders using the same tactic. That's what happens when politicians only care about the fame and power and not about the people or the country.

[Varnafindë]

And now most of the leaders in high positions regarding this question have left their positions or are threatened to be kicked out of them.
Who is going to be the one who actually starts the process of applying to leave the EU (by evoking paragraph 50 or whatever that was)?

And are Scotland and N. Ireland going to insist on not leaving?

[Mari]

We'll see. They made their beds and all that jazz. I do think it's incredibly low of farage to leave after creating this mess.