05-20-2003, 12:33 PM | #1 |
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Origional fate of men
In Finrod and andereth in morgoths ring she eludes to a belife among men that they were not origionally destined to die and this was a result of arda marred and from morgoth himself? could he doom the 2nd children of eru to death? bearing in mind that the airnur had no part in there making!
Its a strange one and one im surprised toliken threw into the mixer
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05-20-2003, 12:34 PM | #2 | |
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Re: Origional fate of men
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05-20-2003, 01:27 PM | #3 |
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When Tolkien wrote the Athrabeth he was planning to revise the mythology to a great degree. If you have read 'Myths transformed' later in the book you'll know what I'm talking about. He may then have wanted to give Morgoth far more power.
Personally I don't like the idea of Morgoth being powerful enough to change the lifespan of Men. I prefer to have Eru superior in that matter. Adanel's story is a Mannish myth, and therefore unreliable, as it is subject to change through generations. It's also possible that Adanel's story is originating from Morgoth, who would like Men to fear death, the gift from Eru.
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05-20-2003, 01:36 PM | #4 | |
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The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #156
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
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05-21-2003, 07:26 AM | #5 | |
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as Andreth said: could Morgoth do that? i don't think so, but i see no other solution according to the published Silmarillion. As Artanis said, "Toliken" (that's Sween's spelling) was planning to radically transform the myths. It's possible that he was planning to make Eru conceive men as inmortal in the begining and then to have to punish turning them mortal. Then, "what would have been the importance of introducing them later in time?" (as Arien pointed). Remember that they appear in the music of the "Airnur" (yep, again Sween's ) only when the precent theme has failed. Perhaps they were Eru's second trying. His first child have been marred when Morgoth corrupted Arda, so he try and make new child with a different mixture of hröa and fëa. The fate of these second childs would not have been tied to Arda Marred. The problem, then, would have been that Morgoth managed again to make these childs to fall. Thus, the main difference between the fates of elves and men would be that the elves would need the redemption of Arda to be wholly cured and men would need another sort of redemption, perhaps more individual.
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05-21-2003, 09:47 AM | #6 | |
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05-21-2003, 02:20 PM | #7 | |
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About death: I really like the idea of one, superior power, not part of the world, giving death to Men as a gift. As a release. It's beautiful. If Morgoth were to become powerful enough to shorten the lifespan of Men I could accept that, but I wouldn't want him to bring death on to Men, as in Adanel's story.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 05-21-2003 at 02:23 PM. |
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05-21-2003, 06:30 PM | #8 | |
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05-21-2003, 08:00 PM | #9 | |
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05-22-2003, 02:42 AM | #10 | |
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Eru clearly had a purpose with this gift of death. It was given after one age of thought on his part.
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