Tolkien's Opinion

[Tahquamenon]

I wonder what J.R.R. Tolkien would think of the movies

Beautiful or Great Elephants!!!!!! ????????

[Sam]

I think Tolkien would enjoy parts and dissagree with others. For instance, the time that they spent on Aragorn's love life could have been spent on the old forest, or on Sarumans taking controll of the shire

[durinsbane2244]

good show old boy! lol...good ol' hobbit sense, eh sam? i agree...

[BeardofPants]

What are you talking about? He would have been anally neurotic about it. Read Letters - it's all there. He was a neurotic bastard at the best of times.

[durinsbane2244]

and a devout Catholic...

[Earniel]

... and dreadfully protective about his writings. Jackson may very well have thanked his lucky stars that Tolkien wasn't around anymore when this movie was made.

[The last sane person]

Perhaps that's why people WAITED so long in order to make them.

[KingTheoden]

hi all

Originally Posted by Sam

...I think Tolkien would enjoy parts and dissagree with others.

i have the same opinion.


however the works of PJ are very successful. the battles are uproariouses, the set is fantastic...the cast is SUPER!!!



Theoden

[Jon S.]

Since Tolkien previously sold the movie rights for peanuts, I think it's safe to speculate his opinion might have been different than if he had kept them and collected royalties.

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Sam

I think Tolkien would enjoy parts and dissagree with others. For instance, the time that they spent on Aragorn's love life could have been spent on the old forest, or on Sarumans taking controll of the shire

I'm not sure about that- he did write the story of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendix, and he was obssessed with Luthien and Beren, so he might agree that it needed to be included, though certainly not PJ's version

The first time I read LoTR, I remember my reaction to Aragorn's wedding was "who the heck is she?", and going back 800 pages to find two brief mentions.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I don't know, I think he would've liked it. The core of the story is still there. The overwhelming odds to defeat Sauron. The friendship of the hobbits and all of the Fellowship. I'm sure he would've got a kick outta the battle scenes and how could he not like the portrayal of Sam done by Sean Astin. He did a helluva job IMO.

[Elfhelm]

I don't think he liked the idea of novel adaptations in general. I really don't think he would have liked any of it. I imagine his take on the Rankin & Bass might have been a bit harsher than his take on the Bakshi or the Jackson, but I doubt he would have liked any of them.

[King of The Istari]

Thats not what people who knew him or have written about him etc have said, look at the extended edition appendicies, they all say he'd love it.

[Alcuin]

I think we can take a reasonable stab at starting to understand what Tolkien’s response to the movies might have been. In Letter 202 to Christopher and Faith Tolkien, 11 September 1957, he wrote

Stanley [Unwin] & I have agreed on our policy: Art or Cash.

The Cash is certainly in place.

A little background. The Tolkien family (through the Tolkien Estate) received nothing directly from the film (but indirectly through greater book sales): Tolkien sold his movie rights in 1969 to United Artists in order to pay his taxes that year. (As I understand it, Inland Revenue calculates taxes, sends British citizens a bill, and they must pay it.) Some sources say that the amount was about US $10,000; but Janet Brennan Croft at University of Oklahoma cites a December 2002 article in the Sunday Times that puts the figure at £104,000, a quite substantial sum that would explain Tolkien’s willingness to sell the film rights. (Some sources, such as the Sunday Herald , put the figure at £10,000 and cite the year as 1968.) Saul Zaentz Company obtained the rights in 1976; Tolkien Enterprises is owned by Zaentz. Christopher Tolkien is said to have had a falling out with his son Simon over the Peter Jackson movie. If that is true, it is saddening.

Tolkien wrote several caustic remarks in 1958 about a movie treatment by Morton Grady Zimmerman. From Letter 210 to Forrest J. Ackerman, June 1958, we can draw some analogies.

Tolkien complains in Letter 210 that Zimmerman “misrepresents Tom Bombadil.� Bombadil is missing from Jackson’s work altogether.

A little later, he remarks that “Strider does not ‘Whip out a sword’ in the book. Naturally not: his sword was broken.� Jackson gives Aragorn a sword from the beginning, and Narsil is kept in a shrine at Rivendell.

Tolkien complains about the “handling of the ‘Treebeard’ chapter,� and he might pick with Jackson’s handling of this, too. In the book, Treebeard holds a two-day ent-moot to rouse the ents to action, and finally prevails to convince them to attack Isengard. In the movie, the ents refuse to attack, but after Merry tricks Treebeard into passing Isengard, the old ent suddenly summons a dozen or a score of ents to the assault.

Tolkien asks, “Why do not Théoden and Gandalf go into the open before the doors, as I have told?� I suspect he would have objected vigorously to Jackson’s having Gandalf “exorcise� Saruman.

He complains about Zimmerman’s “‘defense of the Homburg’�. What do you suppose he would say about Jackson’s addition of elves from Lórien to the battle?

Given those differences, I rather imagine that Frodo’s dismissing Sam at the entrance of Shelob’s lair would get a scathing review by the author. I also suspect he would complain about the waylaying of Frodo and Sam by Faramir, Frodo’s exposure to the flying Nazgûl in Osgiliath, Denethor’s refusal to light the signal fires, the fight between Éowyn and the Witch-king, the depiction of Denethor’s death in Rath DÃ*nen, and the presence of Merry and Éowyn at the battle before the Black Gates.

Most seriously, however, I imagine that Tolkien would strenuously object to Aragorn’s initial rejection of the kingship of Gondor, the pursuit of which is central to Aragorn’s character in the book; Elrond’s deception of Arwen and attempts to block the love story between Aragorn and Arwen; and the late delivery of the reforged Andúril to Aragorn at Dunharrow following Jackson’s rather imaginative near-death experience for Aragorn by means of a warg.

But the spectacle is quite impressive! Shelob is particularly so. And I do agree that he would have found Jackson’s work more palatable than that of Rankin and Bass.

But perhaps the bottom line would be what Tolkien and Unwin discussed in 1957: Art or Cash.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by King of The Istari

Thats not what people who knew him or have written about him etc have said, look at the extended edition appendicies, they all say he'd love it.

Well, if they had said otherwise I doubt it would have been added on the DVD, now would it?

But I agree with Alcuin, 'Letters' clearly shows Tolkien did not like deviations from the book. I doubt he'd had approved of Jackson's sometimes rather different take on his themes and characters.

Although I would wager he'd be impressed at how they brought certain scenes to live, scenes he no doubt considered unfilmable for all eternity.

[Jon S.]

I've been giving this issue some more thought (always a dangerous proposition!). While I'm still not really sure what the Prof. would have thought about the movies (who can be?), I've decided it comes down to this:

- If Tolkien would have felt proprietary about the plot and its details, he would have disliked what was done in the films.

- If Tolkien would have responded to the films from the point of view that "I gave you my opus and now it has passed beyond my borders to the rest of the world to shape," he would have accepted, if not enjoyed, what was done in the films.

[Sam]

Well, if Tolkien had been alive to see the movies, he probably would've taken part in the making of it. Although, if Tolkien had any control over the making of the movies, each one would've been about 6 hours.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I've been giving this issue some more thought (always a dangerous proposition!). While I'm still not really sure what the Prof. would have thought about the movies (who can be?), I've decided it comes down to this:

- If Tolkien would have felt proprietary about the plot and its details, he would have disliked what was done in the films.

- If Tolkien would have responded to the films from the point of view that "I gave you my opus and now it has passed beyond my borders to the rest of the world to shape," he would have accepted, if not enjoyed, what was done in the films.

um ... with the best will in the world, and ... heh and hel,lo btw!! ...

um ..bollocks!


can you imagine an alive tolkien giving away the rights to his life's work like his dis-interested (in the unknown medium of mass market film just then) heirs???


nope!

[Landroval]

In June and September 1957, the professor was contacted by american movie makers for an animater version of LotR - and he didn't have problems with animation movies, but he certainly disliked Morton Grady Zimmerman's movie script of LotR as of 1958; I wonder if he would compare Z. with Peter Jackson :

Originally Posted by letter #210

If Z and/or others do so, they may be irritated or aggrieved by the tone of many of my criticisms. If so, I am sorry (though not surprised). But I would ask them to make an effort of imagination sufficient to understand the irritation (and on occasion the resentment) of an author, who finds, increasingly as he proceeds, his work treated as it would seem carelessly in general, in places recklessly, and with no evident signs of any appreciation of what it is all about. ....

[Gordis]

I think what Tolkien said about Morton Grady Zimmerman's movie script is applicable to P.Jackson as well - basically he made the same mistakes and worse.
Much worse.

Anyone knows what was Christopher Tolkien's reaction to the movie like?