Paths of the Dead and Orcs/Elves

Varda-Me · 01-26-2002, 02:06 AM

Two things--
One, I've never really understood the purpose of the whole Paths of the Dead plot in LOTR. Who are these (ex)people? What did Aragorn do with them? How were they beneficial to the whole "cause"?

Also, in the movie, someone, maybe Sauron, says Orcs were once Elves. Hmmm. Did I miss something in the book(s)? Which, by the way, I've read about 5 times.

Just wondering!

Varda-Me

Radagast · 01-26-2002, 06:55 AM

Are you referring to The Dead Men of Dunharrow?

These were once men of the White Mountains who broke their oath of alleigance and betrayed the king of Dundedain to Sauron in the Second Age. Cursed as oath-breakers they were not permitted to the rest of the dead and for thousands of years their ghastly legions haunted the Paths of the Dead. At the end of the third age our Aragorn summoned the dead to at last fulfill their oath. Their ghostly legions arose and overthrew the Corsairs of Umbar and their damned souls were permitted to rest.

Radagast · 01-26-2002, 07:04 AM

As to your orc question:-

Within the deep pits of Utumo, in the First Age of the Stars, it is said that Melkor commited his greatest act of blasphemy. For in that time he captured many of the newly risen race of Elves and took them down to his dungeons and with hideous acts of torture he made ruined and terrible forms of life. From these he bred a Goblin race of Slaves that were as loathsome as Elves were fair.

These were Orcs, a multitude brought forth in shapes twisted by pain and hate. The only joy these creatures got was from the suffering and pain of others for the blood that flowed in Orcs was both black and cold. Their stunted form was hideous, crooked and bow legged. Their arms were long and as strong as apes and their skin was black as wood that had been charred with flame. Their jagged fangs in their wide mouths were yellow and their tongues red and thick.

Lightice · 01-26-2002, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Also, in the movie, someone, maybe Sauron, says Orcs were once Elves. Hmmm. Did I miss something in the book(s)? Which, by the way, I've read about 5 times.

You didn't watch the movie very carefully, did you? And you seem to have ignored much of the books as well (no offense). It was Saruman, who said that. And it's true yes, as you can read from Radagast's post.

Varda-Me · 01-27-2002, 01:25 AM

You're right, of course, it was Saruman, not Sauron. That was just a typo, more or less - I certainly know the difference between the two. As for reading the books carefully, I don't remember reading Radagast's passage about the Elves/Orcs that he quoted in his reply. Darn, maybe I just have to read the book again... and again...and again.

Ñólendil · 01-27-2002, 07:20 PM

Tolkien rejected the Orcs-from-Elves idea. He decided late in his life that they actually came from Men (at about the same time he decided Trolls were actually corruptions of a primitive form of Men). So where Orcs come from is highly debatable. For which reason I think it was a mistake for Saruman to say they came from Elves in the movie.

markedel · 01-27-2002, 09:33 PM

"Mythology Transformed" is neither a complete nor transparent document so it's hard to tell. One can say this:

The Silmarillion is what Bilbo heard at Rivendell

Anything else is conjecure

It's a cop out, but a good "internal" explanation

Ñólendil · 01-27-2002, 09:42 PM

But it's not even clear The Silmarillion is derived from Bilbo. For a long while Tolkien was sure it was a Númenórean work as I guess you know.

FrodoFriend · 01-27-2002, 09:48 PM

On Orcs:

There's a passage in the Silmarillion (which I'm too lazy to look up right now) that tells how Melkor formed Orcs from Elves. The Elves who fled from the Valar were captured by Melkor and twisted and tortured into Orcs.

Of course, the Silmarillion was unfinished and published post-humously, so that might not have been his final word on the issue.

Ñólendil · 01-27-2002, 09:50 PM

You're right, it wasn't. He rejected it in favor of the Orcs from Men idea, as I said above.

luinilwen · 01-27-2002, 10:49 PM

i have to agree with lightice - you missed a lot of references in the book. i've only read the book once and i can distinctly remember fangorn mentioning ... wait here's the quote:

Quote:

'...Trolls are only counterfiets, made by the Enemy of Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves.' - Fangorn

but he also says:

Quote:

'It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?' - Fangorn

(both quotes from chapter "Treebeard" TT)i don't think it's ever exactly clear what Saruman did to breed the Uruk-Hai. but the references to the "Enemy of Great Darkness" is Melkor/Morgoth, and that earlier quote is probably from the Silmarillion, btw.

correct me if i'm wrong, i'm but a humble novice

Captain Stern · 01-28-2002, 02:40 PM

wooaw...Hang on there Inoldonil.

Quote:

Tolkien rejected the Orcs-from-Elves idea. He decided late in his life that they actually came from Men (at about the same time he decided Trolls were actually corruptions of a primitive form of Men)

Like luinilwen said, it specificaly states in the Two Towers no less, that Trolls were corruptions of Ents.

Isn't everything said in The Lord of the Rings canon? Didn't Tolkien feel bound by what was said in Lord of the Rings? (Rhetorical questions )

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 01-28-2002, 03:59 PM

wow, know you guys are getting on PJ for following what Tolkien published in the Silmarillion, as opposed to his later musings on the subject...man, tough room

Something tells me that nothing less than Professor Tolkien's shade hovering over the scriptwriting sessions like Banquo's ghost would have satisfied some of us

Finmandos12 · 01-28-2002, 04:25 PM

I could understand Orcs from Men. In Unfinished tales talking about the Druedain, it mentions that they had a special emnity towards orcs, and that some thought they were related.

In TT it doesn't say trolls were made from ents, it says they were bred in mockery of them. It seems that Morgoth tried to imitate them.

Ñólendil · 01-28-2002, 05:07 PM

Quote:

i don't think it's ever exactly clear what Saruman did to breed the Uruk-Hai

Saruman did not breed the Uruk-hai at all. This is an idea of the moviemakers that has already confused too many LotR fans. Saruman made the Half-orcs (which are not Uruks) and Sauron made the Uruk-hai, thousands of years before the War of the Ring.

Not only does the Lord of the Rings only state that the Orcs were bred only in mockery of Elves, but it is moreover said by Treebeard who is not J. R. R. Tolkien. Tolkien mentioned this in a letter to one person, he said that there was a lot Treebeard didn't know and that he was not accounted one of the Wise.

Whether or not Tolkien was ever sure that Trolls were made from Ents (regardless of how sure Treebeard was that they were made in mockery of them), Tolkien decided late in his life that they were not. That doesn't mean that that's the final word on the subject, but that's the latest known explanation from Tolkien on the origins of Trolls. One note made by Tolkien in the process of writing the Lord of the Rings was that their bodies were shaped from stone and filled with Orkish spirits.

Quote:

wow, know you guys are getting on PJ for following what Tolkien published in the Silmarillion, as opposed to his later musings on the subject...

Christopher Tolkien.

Rána Eressëa · 02-05-2002, 10:25 PM

(Little mistake . . . )

Lightice · 02-06-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Stern

Like luinilwen said, it specificaly states in the Two Towers no less, that Trolls were corruptions of Ents.

We can't know for sure that either...
Treebeard said, that trolls were created as mockery of ents, not of ents.
And I wonder of what were armies of Morgoth formed before the coming of Men, if not orcs? And didn't he say somewhere, that trolls were made of stone and filled with orcish spirits?
I think, that he didn't himself know lots of this either, when he died. He just bounced lots of ideas around...
I wish, that he would had a numenorian lifetime, so he could had actually finished the mythology of Arda...

Menelvagor · 02-06-2002, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lightice
I wish, that he would had a numenorian lifetime, so he could had actually finished the mythology of Arda...

Ditto, but make that an elvish lifetime, there is to much I'd like to see finished to happen in 300 odd years.

01-26-2002, 02:06 AM	#1
Varda-Me Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 40	Paths of the Dead and Orcs/Elves Two things-- One, I've never really understood the purpose of the whole Paths of the Dead plot in LOTR. Who are these (ex)people? What did Aragorn do with them? How were they beneficial to the whole "cause"? Also, in the movie, someone, maybe Sauron, says Orcs were once Elves. Hmmm. Did I miss something in the book(s)? Which, by the way, I've read about 5 times. Just wondering! Varda-Me

01-26-2002, 06:55 AM	#2
Radagast Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Merry old England Posts: 413	Are you referring to The Dead Men of Dunharrow? These were once men of the White Mountains who broke their oath of alleigance and betrayed the king of Dundedain to Sauron in the Second Age. Cursed as oath-breakers they were not permitted to the rest of the dead and for thousands of years their ghastly legions haunted the Paths of the Dead. At the end of the third age our Aragorn summoned the dead to at last fulfill their oath. Their ghostly legions arose and overthrew the Corsairs of Umbar and their damned souls were permitted to rest. __________________ Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. Last edited by Radagast : 08-05-2004 at 11:37 AM.

01-26-2002, 07:04 AM	#3
Radagast Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Merry old England Posts: 413	As to your orc question:- Within the deep pits of Utumo, in the First Age of the Stars, it is said that Melkor commited his greatest act of blasphemy. For in that time he captured many of the newly risen race of Elves and took them down to his dungeons and with hideous acts of torture he made ruined and terrible forms of life. From these he bred a Goblin race of Slaves that were as loathsome as Elves were fair. These were Orcs, a multitude brought forth in shapes twisted by pain and hate. The only joy these creatures got was from the suffering and pain of others for the blood that flowed in Orcs was both black and cold. Their stunted form was hideous, crooked and bow legged. Their arms were long and as strong as apes and their skin was black as wood that had been charred with flame. Their jagged fangs in their wide mouths were yellow and their tongues red and thick. __________________ Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. Last edited by Radagast : 08-05-2004 at 11:39 AM.

01-27-2002, 07:20 PM	#6
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Tolkien rejected the Orcs-from-Elves idea. He decided late in his life that they actually came from Men (at about the same time he decided Trolls were actually corruptions of a primitive form of Men). So where Orcs come from is highly debatable. For which reason I think it was a mistake for Saruman to say they came from Elves in the movie. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-27-2002, 09:33 PM	#7
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	"Mythology Transformed" is neither a complete nor transparent document so it's hard to tell. One can say this: The Silmarillion is what Bilbo heard at Rivendell Anything else is conjecure It's a cop out, but a good "internal" explanation __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

01-27-2002, 01:25 AM	#5
Varda-Me Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 40	You're right, of course, it was Saruman, not Sauron. That was just a typo, more or less - I certainly know the difference between the two. As for reading the books carefully, I don't remember reading Radagast's passage about the Elves/Orcs that he quoted in his reply. Darn, maybe I just have to read the book again... and again...and again.

01-27-2002, 09:42 PM	#8
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	But it's not even clear The Silmarillion is derived from Bilbo. For a long while Tolkien was sure it was a Númenórean work as I guess you know. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-27-2002, 09:48 PM	#9
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	On Orcs: There's a passage in the Silmarillion (which I'm too lazy to look up right now) that tells how Melkor formed Orcs from Elves. The Elves who fled from the Valar were captured by Melkor and twisted and tortured into Orcs. Of course, the Silmarillion was unfinished and published post-humously, so that might not have been his final word on the issue. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-27-2002, 09:50 PM	#10
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	You're right, it wasn't. He rejected it in favor of the Orcs from Men idea, as I said above. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-28-2002, 03:59 PM	#13
Foul_Dwimmerlaik Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 76	wow, know you guys are getting on PJ for following what Tolkien published in the Silmarillion, as opposed to his later musings on the subject...man, tough room Something tells me that nothing less than Professor Tolkien's shade hovering over the scriptwriting sessions like Banquo's ghost would have satisfied some of us __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.

01-28-2002, 04:25 PM	#14
Finmandos12 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 327	I could understand Orcs from Men. In Unfinished tales talking about the Druedain, it mentions that they had a special emnity towards orcs, and that some thought they were related. In TT it doesn't say trolls were made from ents, it says they were bred in mockery of them. It seems that Morgoth tried to imitate them. __________________ The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. Last edited by Finmandos12 : 01-28-2002 at 04:28 PM.

02-05-2002, 10:25 PM	#16
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	(Little mistake . . . ) Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 02-13-2002 at 06:37 PM.