Was the destroying of the Ring lucky?

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-13-2004, 03:28 AM

Some people that I have talked to have regarded the destroying of the Ring as LUCKY. I disagree with this and this is why.

In the chapter Mount Doom on page 922 Frodo says to Gollum

'"Begone, trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire Of Doom"'

Then what happens. Frodo claims the Ring for himself, Gollum bites off his finger and has the Ring. Then he falls over the edge in celebrating that he finally has his precious back.

For didn't Frodo say in The Two Towers

'If I were to put the precious on and command you to cast yourself over the precipice of fire you would do so'

For Gollum was held to the promise he made when Frodo & Sam found him or when he found Frodo & Sam might be more accurate.

'"We promise, yes I promise," said Gollum. "I will serve the master of the Precious. Good master, good Smeagol, gollum, gollum."

What do you guys think. Was it luck or did the command of Frodo and promise of Gollum work against him.

Beren3000 · 08-13-2004, 04:20 AM

I don't think that the promise of Gollum was why he fell. I don't think that Frodo's words caused it either. I think they were rather some kind of foretelling on Frodo's part (or foreshadowing on Tolkien's part). I would call the destruction of the Ring luck as in it was brought about by fate and "the higher powers at work". There's always that sense that good is supported by higher powers, in other words "God knows the way of good people."

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-13-2004, 04:29 AM

Maybe but I still think the words of Frodo had at least some influance on what happened.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-13-2004, 01:33 PM

Quote:

For didn't Frodo say in The Two Towers

'If I were to put the precious on and command you to cast yourself over the precipice of fire you would do so'

For Gollum was held to the promise he made when Frodo & Sam found him or when he found Frodo & Sam might be more accurate.

'"We promise, yes I promise," said Gollum. "I will serve the master of the Precious. Good master, good Smeagol, gollum, gollum."

What do you guys think. Was it luck or did the command of Frodo and promise of Gollum work against him.

Well, once Gollum bit Frodo's finger off and took the Ring, Frodo would no longer have the power over him to commamd him, would he? He would no longer be the "master of the Precious." Gollum's mind was a tormented one. He was confused, so it's hard to say whether Frodo could control what he did at the end, or if it was just chance that he fell into the fire.

***Valandil*** · 08-13-2004, 01:38 PM

I think it was in part the impact Frodo's words still had on Gollum... as well as the promise he had sworn 'on the precious' - remember how Frodo warned him that if he went back on the promise, the Ring itself would get him?

brownjenkins · 08-13-2004, 01:41 PM

i'd have to put it to the fate thing... there are many references thoughout tolkien's work about a sort of predestination... not one that was known to all, or any, but there none-the-less

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-13-2004, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Well, once Gollum bit Frodo's finger off and took the Ring, Frodo would no longer have the power over him to commamd him, would he? He would no longer be the "master of the Precious." Gollum's mind was a tormented one. He was confused, so it's hard to say whether Frodo could control what he did at the end, or if it was just chance that he fell into the fire.

Yet Gollum had broken the promise by harming Frodo so maybe he had to pay the price.

Haradrim · 08-20-2004, 07:00 AM

H eswore on the precious and I thinkt hat while the ring is evil a promise is a promise. I think it made him a little a little reckless and he fell off. I think the powers at be (Buffy reference

) also had something to do with it

Attalus · 08-20-2004, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haradrim

H eswore on the precious and I thinkt hat while the ring is evil a promise is a promise. I think it made him a little a little reckless and he fell off. I think the powers at be (Buffy reference

) also had something to do with it

I think that the Ring actually did have some part in it, an irony that I have always relished, the Ring causing its own doom.

Haradrim · 08-20-2004, 04:17 PM

I know I think that in a sense (a huge ironical sense) the ring had to fulfil a promise to a formere owner and therefore destroyed itself along with Gollum. HEHEHEHEHEHE OH THE IRONY HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE

emily leonard · 04-20-2005, 12:02 PM

the movies totaly undermined wat the lotr books were but then makin it was lik an almost inposible task so they did a pritty gd job realy.

**Nurvingiel** · 04-24-2005, 07:34 AM

Welcome to the Moot Em. (Another Em!

) Introduce yourself in the Welcome thread if you want.

I think it was fate, but I don't think Eru was influencing every aspect of the Quest. Maybe it was a bit lucky that Gollum fell, but it was also highly probably that he fell. I mean, he was doing a mad dance next to a cliff. (Someone needs to read the Evil Overlord list.

)

Beren3000 · 04-24-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think it was fate, but I don't think Eru was influencing every aspect of the Quest. Maybe it was a bit lucky that Gollum fell, but it was also highly probably that he fell. I mean, he was doing a mad dance next to a cliff. (Someone needs to read the Evil Overlord list. )

But you'd also think that Tolkien would choose a more heroic way of bringing about the destruction of the Ring. I think he put in the "accidental" destruction of the Ring as another evidence of Providence. (Nurv., why don't you share your insights with us in the divine intervention thread?)

P.S.: Welcome to the Moot, Emily

Gordis · 04-24-2005, 12:21 PM

Gollum's destruction in flames was predetermined by his oath on the Precious.
But it was pure luck that Gollum was holding the Ring when he fell. I think Tolkien wanted to stress that it was beyond anyone's will to resist the temptation and to destroy the Ring.

**Nurvingiel** · 04-24-2005, 01:09 PM

Do you think then, that if it had fallen to Sam to destroy the Ring, that he wouldn't have done it either? I think arguments could be made either way. (Though I would say that Sam would have destroyed it.)

Maybe Tolkien was also saying that you can't make any oath lightly. Even if you broke it, it would find some way to fullfill itself or punish you for breaking it. In Gollum's case, both things happened.

Gordis · 04-24-2005, 01:24 PM

I really can't answer for Sam. He is very special, Sam the Steadfast. Though even he had dreams of greatness while wearing the Ring.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 04-25-2005, 02:07 AM

Yet he gave the Ring back to Frodo, without the help of anybody.

The Wizard from Milan · 04-25-2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Some people that I have talked to have regarded the destroying of the Ring as LUCKY. I disagree with this and this is why.

In the chapter Mount Doom on page 922 Frodo says to Gollum

'"Begone, trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire Of Doom"'

Then what happens. Frodo claims the Ring for himself, Gollum bites off his finger and has the Ring. Then he falls over the edge in celebrating that he finally has his precious back.

For didn't Frodo say in The Two Towers

'If I were to put the precious on and command you to cast yourself over the precipice of fire you would do so'

For Gollum was held to the promise he made when Frodo & Sam found him or when he found Frodo & Sam might be more accurate.

'"We promise, yes I promise," said Gollum. "I will serve the master of the Precious. Good master, good Smeagol, gollum, gollum."

What do you guys think. Was it luck or did the command of Frodo and promise of Gollum work against him.

I had not noticed this quote until the last read. I think it is a very significant one and grants a lot of internal cohesion to the LotR. It lessens the need to resort to the Silmarillion (and its music). I am still mulling over this but it might well change my views as expressed in the thread "Divine Intervention or Weak Plot?"

me9996 · 04-25-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Some people that I have talked to have regarded the destroying of the Ring as LUCKY. I disagree with this and this is why.

In the chapter Mount Doom on page 922 Frodo says to Gollum

'"Begone, trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire Of Doom"'

Then what happens. Frodo claims the Ring for himself, Gollum bites off his finger and has the Ring. Then he falls over the edge in celebrating that he finally has his precious back.

For didn't Frodo say in The Two Towers

'If I were to put the precious on and command you to cast yourself over the precipice of fire you would do so'

For Gollum was held to the promise he made when Frodo & Sam found him or when he found Frodo & Sam might be more accurate.

'"We promise, yes I promise," said Gollum. "I will serve the master of the Precious. Good master, good Smeagol, gollum, gollum."

What do you guys think. Was it luck or did the command of Frodo and promise of Gollum work against him.

Frodo did it!

Telcontar_Dunedain · 04-26-2005, 01:12 PM

Did what?

08-13-2004, 03:28 AM	#1
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Was the destroying of the Ring lucky? Some people that I have talked to have regarded the destroying of the Ring as LUCKY. I disagree with this and this is why. In the chapter Mount Doom on page 922 Frodo says to Gollum '"Begone, trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire Of Doom"' Then what happens. Frodo claims the Ring for himself, Gollum bites off his finger and has the Ring. Then he falls over the edge in celebrating that he finally has his precious back. For didn't Frodo say in The Two Towers 'If I were to put the precious on and command you to cast yourself over the precipice of fire you would do so' For Gollum was held to the promise he made when Frodo & Sam found him or when he found Frodo & Sam might be more accurate. '"We promise, yes I promise," said Gollum. "I will serve the master of the Precious. Good master, good Smeagol, gollum, gollum." What do you guys think. Was it luck or did the command of Frodo and promise of Gollum work against him.

08-13-2004, 01:38 PM	#5
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	I think it was in part the impact Frodo's words still had on Gollum... as well as the promise he had sworn 'on the precious' - remember how Frodo warned him that if he went back on the promise, the Ring itself would get him? __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

08-13-2004, 01:41 PM	#6
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	i'd have to put it to the fate thing... there are many references thoughout tolkien's work about a sort of predestination... not one that was known to all, or any, but there none-the-less __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

08-20-2004, 07:00 AM	#8
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	H eswore on the precious and I thinkt hat while the ring is evil a promise is a promise. I think it made him a little a little reckless and he fell off. I think the powers at be (Buffy reference ) also had something to do with it __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-20-2004, 04:17 PM	#10
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	I know I think that in a sense (a huge ironical sense) the ring had to fulfil a promise to a formere owner and therefore destroyed itself along with Gollum. HEHEHEHEHEHE OH THE IRONY HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-13-2004, 04:20 AM	#2
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	I don't think that the promise of Gollum was why he fell. I don't think that Frodo's words caused it either. I think they were rather some kind of foretelling on Frodo's part (or foreshadowing on Tolkien's part). I would call the destruction of the Ring luck as in it was brought about by fate and "the higher powers at work". There's always that sense that good is supported by higher powers, in other words "God knows the way of good people."

08-13-2004, 04:29 AM	#3
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Maybe but I still think the words of Frodo had at least some influance on what happened.

04-20-2005, 12:02 PM	#11
emily leonard Enting Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: on the moon but i do vist earth now and again Posts: 57	the movies totaly undermined wat the lotr books were but then makin it was lik an almost inposible task so they did a pritty gd job realy.

04-24-2005, 12:21 PM	#14
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Gollum's destruction in flames was predetermined by his oath on the Precious. But it was pure luck that Gollum was holding the Ring when he fell. I think Tolkien wanted to stress that it was beyond anyone's will to resist the temptation and to destroy the Ring.

04-24-2005, 01:24 PM	#16
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	I really can't answer for Sam. He is very special, Sam the Steadfast. Though even he had dreams of greatness while wearing the Ring.

04-25-2005, 02:07 AM	#17
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Yet he gave the Ring back to Frodo, without the help of anybody. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

04-26-2005, 01:12 PM	#20
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Did what? __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

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