Saruman's allegiance to Sauron

[bropous]

In another thread, we touched on whether the film makes a misstep with Saruman basically swearing allegiance to Sauron. Some took exception to this characterization.

To me, this is straight from the spirit of the book, that Saruman actually DID swear allegiance to the Dark Lord, and that he agreed to take up a subservient role to Sauron.

From the book, and from my signature quote, when Pippin is reporting what he experienced when he looked into Saruman's Palantir:

' "So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?"

This was Sauron, speaking to whom he thought was Saruman. This shows Saruman in a servant role, at least in the mind of Sauron. Now, I felt that Saruman did this with the express intent of getting Sauron off his back, to get Sauron to look in other directions while Saruman had his own underlings search for the Ring unhindered, and with the intent of finally overthrowing and supplanting Sauron when the One Ring was in his possession.

[spidersbane]

Good point.

[Bombadil's PR Guy]

Maybe the difficulty is that, in the first book, from the time when Gandolf recounted his confrontation and imprisonment at Isengard and well into the second, we were given to believe that Saruman's motivations are purely for his own "enlightened" perception of what's best for Middle Earth, which is his way of rationalizing his greed for absolute power. Only when Pippin encounters Sauron through the stone, do we get the picture, as interpreted for us by Gandolf, that Saruman's been brought under the influence of Sauron (I suppose some Tolkien linguist can explain why these names have to be so dang similar).
I would say that the movie does make a pretty signigicant departure from the spirit of the book. Rather than as in the book, where Saruman, although perhaps only deluding himself, believes that he can play along with Sauron and have the ring for himself (rather a more sophisticated version of Gollum), in the movie, Saruman's early "basically swearing alligiance" seems to remove the entire Saruman<->Sauron tension aspect of the book.

[Yazad]

This was also my single biggest problem with the film. To me it really damaged the integrity of the story, the purpose of which I can only see as being an attempt to create a clear "bad guy" in the first installment and, perhaps, to help make it easier to understand that there are "good guys" and "bad guys" to first time viewers.

Now as to the novels, bropous points out very clearly the part of the story which links Sauron and Saruman directly. The "Why have you neglected to report for so long" line really does hint towards a strong allegiance. However, this really seems to fly in the face of how Saruman was represented throughout the rest of the story. I would tend to agree with the supposition that Saruman is attempting to throw Sauron off track in a way, and also, perhaps, to attempt to use Sauron's might to his own purposes where possible. A dangerous game indeed!

But the movie takes this way too far. Surely Saruman's underlings were never reporting to Sauron ala "What does the eye command?" line delivered by the gobblin fellow. And ins't there much contention among the orcs as they carry along Merry and Pippin as to exactly who is in charge?

I was truly mystified by this representation in the movie, but perhaps this can be cleared up a bit in the next installment...

Anyway, that's my mindless ranting for the evening. Have a good one!

Yazad

[bropous]

Now, I must take a contrary, albeit friendly, stance on this issue.

To me, it is quite apparent in the Fellowship [book] that Saruman is "going the way of the Dark Lord" from the first of his imprisonment of Gandalf. The Istari are supposed to be working together, and for Saruman to betray Gandalf and imprison him shows that he is already, at least starting, falling under the sway of Sauron.

Also, the fact that Gandalf notes that Isengard is then inhabited by Orcs and wolves, Servants of the Dark Lord himself, shows that Saruman has gotten some assistance from Sauron already, having sent to Saruman Orcs and wolves. The orcs were not independent mercenaries, ready for hire to the highest bidder; they were always agents of the Dark Powers. Saruman then bred the Uruk-Hai, to create an orc-like race whose allegiance would be only to him, for his planned backstabbing of Sauron when he got the One Ring in his own hands.

Saruman's plan was to suck up to Sauron, to act as buddies and so to get the Dark Lord off his case and bend his Eye elsewhere, whilst Saruman used his own forces to snag the Ring and make himself "The Ruler". I think this is well-portrayed in the film. Like the scene of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, I think it works better in a "sequential" portrtayal, and not covered in restrospect.

[FrodoFriend]

Hmmm . . . My personal point of view is in between. I'm sure Saruman didn't want the Ring to helped Middle Earth, but I'm also sure that he never intended to become Sauron's servant originally. However, there's only one evil faction, and since Saruman is less evil and powerful than Sauron he inevitably becomes Sauron's instrument. He wanted the Ring for himself, but he only came under Sauron's sway after he:

"cast his gaze upon Barad-dur. Then he was caught!"

Seems to me Sauron's will ensnared Saruman, but he was still pretty much evil to begin with.

[jerseydevil]

I agree with Bombadil's PR Guy and Yasad. Although I don't think that this was the worst part of the movie - I still reserve that for Flight to the Ford.

Gandalf had no idea in FOTR that Saruman even had the Palantir - so he didn't know Saruman was in communication with Sauron. He had suspicions - but he didn't know. It wasn't until the Palantir was found in The Two Towers after the destruction of Isengard that Gandalf realized that Saruman had fallen into Sauron's trap.

Also Saruman had always insisted that the Ring was lost - never to be found. Washed down the River Anduin into the sea. In the movie he's accusing Gandalf of having the Ring right under his nose and not knowing it.

In LOTR it is plain that Saruman wanted the Ring for himself and that he thought he was working for his own ends. Jackson completely changed the whole dynamics between Sauron and Saruman.

[Gothmog]

When I first saw the movie I thought the same thing about Saruman seeking power independently, but then I went to the book and found this,

"A new Power is rising....This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those who aided it."

This is from Tolkien himself, when Gandalf is telling the Council of Elrond of his imprisonment by Saruman.

[bropous]

Saruman: "This then is once choice before you, before us. We may join with that power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope in that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be a rich reward for those that aided it...."

JOIN with that power. Join with it for a while, usurp that power, and rule Middle Earth in his own stead. AID that power. Saruman is obviously already under the sway of Sauron, and Gandalf bloody well knows it, but not exactly sure HOW this occurred. Evidence? Orcs and wolves at Isengard i nthe service of Saruman. They were not in evidence when he entered the Ring of Isengard. Orcs and wolves, as said before, are not wandering mercenaries, they are loyal servants of the Dark Lord himself, and therefore, were "farmed out" to Saruman. Gandalf in no way misses this.

When Grima throws the Palantir out of the window at Orthanc, everything falls into place. But Gandalf already knew that Saruman had already begun to fall under the sway of the Dark Lord when Saruman imprisoned him at Orthanc.

Jackson in no way altered the dynamic between Saruman and Sauron, he only brought it forward and made it more obvious. The film STILL makes it obvious that Saruman is going for the Ring himself, that he is gonna betray ANYONE and "string them along" to get his grubby little mitts on the One Ring for hisse'f.

"One of the halflings has a trinket. Bring them to me, unspoiled..." He wants it for himself.